Petition for lemmy.world to close registrations. (lemmy.world)

submitted 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago) by youarehurtingthefediverse@lemmy.world to c/fediverse@lemmy.world

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I just realized that none of the comments or posts I made in the last week from my instance are getting to lemmy.world.

I went to see if I my instance was defederated. No, still showing as connected.

I then went to see if I got blocked or banned. Nope, my username is not showing up in the modlog anywhere.

Is it because my instance is small? I guess not, because I can interact with people and communities from anywhere else just fine.

At the moment, the only plausible explanation I have is that lemmy.world is overwhelmed and dropping messages from smaller instances. They do however everything in their power to keep more users coming up.

Yeah, I get that they were being attacked. I can only imagine that getting DDOS'd is not fun, and worrying about the Schmoes on the smaller instances is not a top concern.

But even in the middle of these constant outages and attacks, the lemmy.world admins are still keeping registrations open? Why? Wouldn't it be better if they encouraged the users to move out of the instance to reduce the load? Isn't the whole point of decentralized technologies to be, you know, decentralized?

I shouldn't have to come here, create an account and make things even more centralized just so that I can tell people that this attitude is hurting the fediverse.

I wouldn't be so pissed at this if it weren't for the fact that some many communities were created here and is making this particular instance a crucial part of the fediverse, but the admins seems to be more worried about getting their user count up than the health of the overall system.

Please, admins, the more you go with this unstable federation and open registrations, the more of an incentive you are creating to centralize this further here. Help the fediverse and help yourselves. Close down registrations and focus on ensuring that everyone can access the communities that are being formed here.

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[-] antik@lemmy.world 83 points 2 years ago

We are not 'dropping' messages from smaller instances. @ruud@lemmy.world and others did tighten up some things to fend off some attacks but that should not interfere with the federation.

If you could have at least mentioned your instance name we could ask our backend administrators to have a look and we could get back to you with an informed answer.

We will not close registrations, what we will do is show people information on how the fediverse works and give them the option to register on other instances. That will be implemented in the next couple of days.

[-] youarehurtingthefediverse@lemmy.world 12 points 2 years ago

As for why I am not naming my instance: this post went to -1 as soon as it got posted. My comments are also being downvoted quite quickly. I don't believe that I am being rude or uncivil, yet it feels like mods and admins are more worried about fighting to keep the status quo than helping the community at large, and I'd worry about retaliation.

[-] zkfcfbzr@lemmy.world 54 points 2 years ago

The reason you're being downvoted is because you experienced a problem (Posts from your instance won't show up in this instance), came up with a pet theory for why that problem might be happening (This instance must be dropping posts from small instances because it's overloaded from all the users), assumed it was correct (Based on what, exactly? Because it's definitely not correct), then came here to post about it in a very confrontational, demanding, and accusatory tone, with a seeming lack of desire or ability to consider that you may be the mistaken one. Moreso, the change you're suggesting would have dramatic and perhaps negative repercussions for both this instance and Lemmy as a whole.

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[-] elrac@kbin.social 31 points 2 years ago

I mean, you named your account "you are hurting the fediverse" to come and ask them to close registrations then you ignore their questions. Seems kinda rude to me.

[-] ttmrichter@lemmy.world 19 points 2 years ago

I don’t believe that I am being rude or uncivil

Dude. You're literally naming yourself "you are hurting the fediverse". How 'bout I go to your instance and call myself "@youareafuckingmoron" and ask you politely to change something on your instance? Would you think it just a wee tad uncivil?

[-] Chozo@kbin.social 13 points 2 years ago

I don’t believe that I am being rude or uncivil

Well, herein lies the problem, because the rest of us do. You're assuming that you know better than the people who have been doing this for years, and dismissing their attempts to help as "excuses". I really don't know what other outcome you could have possibly foreseen with this combative attitude.

[-] Treczoks@kbin.social 10 points 2 years ago

Maybe the reason is that you behave like a first-class asshole idiot? You wanted help, but evaded the reasonable question for your instance name. Several times. While making unreasonable demands. I've seen a lot of idiots in thirty years of being on the internet, and seriously, you are one of the bigger ones.

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[-] youarehurtingthefediverse@lemmy.world 9 points 2 years ago

Why is it so vital for you to keep registrations open? Can you please help me understand the logic behind it?

[-] antik@lemmy.world 67 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago)

Instead of mentioning your instance so we can help you you seem to have other motives.

Edit: but if you want the logic. We had discussions internally as well as with other instance admins about this and the conclusion was - even from other instance admins - that closing registrations would be a bad idea. Currently a lot of people are sent to lemmy.world from reddit and 3rd party apps for example. If people land here and are not able to register they might not look into it further and give up because it is too complicated or overwhelming. So that would actually be worse for the fediverse. That is why we want to make the sign up page more informative and provide options.

[-] AnonymousLlama@kbin.social 11 points 2 years ago

Perfectly fair. People coming from Reddit specifically need to be eased into the fediverse and saying "whoops sorry we're full / closed" isn't great.

Ideally if we want things balanced people should be on multiple instances but I'd rather several slower, bigger instances in the meantime until the community expands.

Cheers for the work you guys do!

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[-] Plopp@lemmy.world 36 points 2 years ago

Personal anecdote: I probably wouldn't have joined Lemmy if it wasn't for lemmy.world and I think I'm far from alone.

[-] Decoy321@lemmy.world 12 points 2 years ago

I concur. I am one of those people as well.

[-] AnonymousLlama@kbin.social 7 points 2 years ago

People hear from others that Lemmy is the place you go and when searched for you end up here. Having registrations closed doesn't sound like a great idea when most people have no idea about the fediverse

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[-] zecg@lemmy.world 11 points 2 years ago

Apes together strong.

[-] PaulDevonUK@lemmy.world 8 points 2 years ago

"If you could have at least mentioned your instance name we could ask our backend administrators to have a look and we could get back to you with an informed answer."

Try answering their request. Stop going on about registrations, at least until the above is resolved.

[-] antik@lemmy.world 25 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago)

I think it is already answered in this thread.

let us know which instance (even by pm) do we can have an informed reply as to what is going on. There have been changes made in the backend to fend of attacks but this should not affect federation.
There is a bug in Lemmy where instances are too early marked as 'inactive' and will stop federating.

Btw the title of this thread is 'stop registrations' not 'help me find out what is going on'.

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[-] Wander@yiffit.net 45 points 2 years ago

Hey, this happened to us recently. In your database check the table called 'instance ' and make sure the value for 'updated' is less than three days old for lemmy.world

There are false positives regarding the detection of "dead instances" in the latest version of Lemmy and it's actually your instance that stops sending out messages to lemmy.world

[-] youarehurtingthefediverse@lemmy.world 8 points 2 years ago

Ok, you might be on to something. The updated value is set to 2023-06-11. Should I force this value to be recent?

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[-] redcalcium@lemmy.institute 7 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago)

This sounds serious. I'm going to check my own instance too just in case.

Edit: Phew, looks like there is nothing wrong in my instance. Here is a comment from Nutomic describing how the dead instances check works: https://github.com/LemmyNet/lemmy/pull/3427#issuecomment-1618405012 . Basically, if your instance is unlucky enough to fail to connect to, say, lemmy.world when it runs the daily check three times in a row (because lemmy.world happen to be down at that time), then it might decided to skip federating with lemmy.world. Three days might be too short for this check, should've been a week imo.

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[-] JJROKCZ@lemmy.world 36 points 2 years ago

Do you have any proof of any of this? Lol this just reads like a rant that your server isn’t as popular and it isn’t fair so the popular host should just stop taking on new users because reasons

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[-] sabreW4K3@lemmy.tf 9 points 2 years ago

This was brought up a few days ago on ml

https://lemmy.tf/post/441333

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[-] maegul@lemmy.ml 8 points 2 years ago

A general thought about centralisation on the fediverse ...

Across various platforms, relatively large instances appear to be a common, arguably "natural" phenomenon. mastodon.social, firefish.social, kbin.social, lemmy.world, pixelfed.social etc (see the fedidb page for platforms for data).

So, without judging it as inherently good or bad for the fediverse, it might be worth understanding why/how this comes to be. In that vein, my immediate thoughts:

Decentralisation isn't naturally attractive and has obvious flaws. It's off-putting if you don't understand what's going on, raises questions that hard to get answers to such as "how are the admins of that instance" and "what problems will I face that I'm not being told about", and generally introduces decisions and information that get in the way of starting an account and jumping in to the platform.
Network effects are real and would naturally lead to run away centralisation.
People seek "trust-worthiness" (related to the first point), and amidst uncertainty about which instance to pick, the obvious, and maybe only clear signal of trustworthiness is the size of an instance.
In the case of lemmy, the location of communities adds an extra dimension, which, given that you need an account on an instance to create a community there, contributes an additional centralising factor.

If excessive centralisation is to be avoided, whatever the threshold is, I'd bet accounting for these factors (and whatever others are in play) would be necessary. Some random thoughts along these lines:

Large central instances could do more to promote instance diversity. I've seen ruud say that lemmy.world will be doing something along those lines shortly (stated on mastodon).
Smaller instances could do more to clearly state why and how their instance is attractive. How invested are the admins into maintaining the instance long term, what's their moderation/(de-)federation policy, do they have a team of some sort, who are they generally on some sort of personal level etc.
join-lemmy and bigger instances could do more to surface the above information about other instances.
The lemmy community (or any other fediverse community) could do more to establish norms about what is expected of instances, admins and communicating where instances and admins are in terms of these norms.
- I see open source licences as a good model. Basically, various "pacts" get written up over time, which are statements of values and commitments that admins and users enter into when they run or join an instance. Various instances adopt particular (or various) pacts which made clear to all new members.
A bit more adventurous ... I'm wondering if "community only" and "user only" instances might make sense at all?
- No idea if the division of load here would actually help anything, but I'm curious.
- One issue would be how do users create communities on a "community-only" instance, and I figure the easiest way through that is allow users to sign in to the instance with their credentials from "user only" instances. A bit of software work would be required, but it's been done on the fediverse before.

Beyond all of that, it might be worth considering the benefits of a relatively big "central" instance. Namely, AFAIU, that they test the limits of the software, which is useful for future growth, they can probably muster larger moderation teams, though such often has scaling issues, and, to be fair, provide the easy landing spot for newcomers who don't know how (or why) to pick an instance.

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