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submitted 1 year ago by L4s@lemmy.world to c/technology@lemmy.world

First U.S. nuclear reactor built from scratch in decades enters commercial operation in Georgia::ATLANTA — A new reactor at a nuclear power plant in Georgia has entered commercial operation, becoming the first new American reactor built from scratch in decades.

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[-] 2pt_perversion@lemmy.world 140 points 1 year ago

Good news. Anything but fossil fuels at this point.

[-] Yendor@sh.itjust.works 26 points 1 year ago

The reduced operating emissions take 10+ years to outweigh the enormous construction emissions of nuclear. (Compared to gas.)

[-] cryball@sopuli.xyz 111 points 1 year ago

Fortunately the nuclear reactor can be operated for >50 years :)

[-] Yendor@sh.itjust.works 25 points 1 year ago

Sure. But do you think Nuclear reactors will still be cheaper than renewables + storage in the 2070s? Nuclear is far more expensive per kWh than renewables, and the cost of storage is falling fast.

[-] cryball@sopuli.xyz 27 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

Good question, that one can only speculate on. IMO it's a two part question.

First is that newly built nuclear plants are expensive. So the question depends on if we bite the bullet (build the reactor) today or in 2070. One built today will produce cheap power in 50 years.

For example in Finland we have reactors from 1980, that make up the backbone of stable energy production in our country. Those are going to be kept online till the 2050s. I'd argue at that point the cost per kwh will be mostly dependent on maintenance and fuel, so relatively small.

Wind and solar cannot reap the same benefits if you have to replace the plant every 20 years.

Storage is a completely separate question that is not taken into account when new wind farms and such are being built. If one was to account for storage today, the cost of renewables would be much closer to that of other means of production.

Also in the future, if storage costs keep falling due to billions of R&D money, similar effects could be achieved in nuclear via serial production and scale.

EDIT: Just read you have studied this stuff for real. Then ignore most of what I said, as you might know better :D

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[-] traveler01@lemdro.id 38 points 1 year ago

The amount of power a nuclear reactor outputs and the amount of coal and gas powerplants you can close thanks to one, I’d say that figure is way smaller.

[-] Yendor@sh.itjust.works 21 points 1 year ago

I literally studied this exact nuclear design at University - the Westinghouse AP1000. You can look up the WNISR (World Nuclear Industry Status Report) if you don’t want to take my word for it.

Don’t forget, mining and enriching uranium still has a significant carbon footprint, far higher per tonne than any fossil fuel. Yes, it’s lower over time, but we need to be reducing emissions now, not in 50 years time.

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[-] giddy@aussie.zone 66 points 1 year ago

14 years and 35 billion (combined with #4 which has not been finished) and didn't generate a single kWh in anger until now. Put the same investment into renewables and it would generate similar or greater energy and would start doing so within a year.

The argument against nuclear now is not about safety. It is about money. Nuclear simply cannot compete without massive subsidies.

[-] problembasedperson@lemmy.world 39 points 1 year ago

Renewables and nuclear are in the same team. It's true that nuclear requires a greater investment of money and time but the returns are greater than renewables. I recommend checking this video about the economics of nuclear energy.

[-] paintbucketholder@lemmy.world 26 points 1 year ago

That video completely ignores decommissioning costs for nuclear power plants and long-term nuclear waste storage costs in its calculation. Only in the levelized cost of electricity comparison does it show that nuclear is by far the most expensive way of generating electricity, and that it simply can't compete with renewables on cost.

People love to look at nuclear power plants that are up and running and calculate electricity generation costs based just on operating costs - while ignoring construction costs, decommissioning costs, and waste disposal costs.

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[-] Waryle@lemmy.world 29 points 1 year ago

France was able to output 2 reactors per year at 1,5 billion of euros per 1000MW for more than 2 decades during the 70's to 90's. The whole French nuclear industry has cost around 130-150 billions between 1960 and 2010, including researches, build and maintenance of France's whole nuclear fleet.

A 1000MW reactor, at current French electricity price and for a 80% capacity factor, generates 1,4 billion of euros worth of electricity per year, for a minimum of 60 years.

Nuclear is not costly, and can absolutely compete by itself, if you don't sabotage it and plan it right.

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[-] PetDinosaurs@lemmy.world 19 points 1 year ago

Base load my friend. We also need steady, reliable, clean power when it's dark and calm. Until we can accomplish seasonal grid storage of renewables, this is the less expensive option.

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[-] grue@lemmy.world 60 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

About damn time! As a Georgia Power ratepayer, I've only already been paying extra for it for what, around a decade now?

[-] hamsterkill@lemmy.sdf.org 33 points 1 year ago

That's the downside of nuclear. Cost and build time. Upside is it's reliable and carbon-clean.

[-] JackbyDev@programming.dev 49 points 1 year ago

The best time to build a nuclear power plant was thirty years ago. The second best time is now.

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[-] Coreidan@lemmy.world 49 points 1 year ago

Whoa. Finally a state in the US that isn’t doing something completely ass backwards. We need more of this.

[-] Stovetop@lemmy.world 28 points 1 year ago

It's Georgia, though. This is a positive development but it barely begins to make up for how much other ass-backwards stuff there is.

This is the state that elected Marjorie Taylor Greene, keep in mind.

[-] jkure2@lemmy.world 18 points 1 year ago

A single congressional district within that state elected Marjorie Taylor Greene lol

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[-] Beaupedia@lemm.ee 46 points 1 year ago

I highly, highly recommend the Oliver Stone documentary Nuclear Now from earlier this year. Completely changed my perspective. I had no idea that the oil industry was behind so much of the fear mongering around nuclear.

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[-] doggle@lemmy.world 44 points 1 year ago

Oh, neat. My state did something not completely stupid. I've got some reservations about nuke power as opposed to renewable, but this is definitely better than continuing fossil fuels.

[-] killa44@lemmy.world 25 points 1 year ago

Fission and fusion reactors are really more like in-between renewable and non-renewable. Sure, it relies on materials that are finite, but there is way, way more of that material available in comparison to how much we need.

Making this distinction is necessary to un-spook people who have gone along with the panic induced by bad media and lazy engineering of the past.

[-] rm_dash_r_star@lemm.ee 28 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

Fusion and fission are quite different. A practical fusion reactor does not exist. It's outside our technological capability right now. Current fusion reactors are only experimental and can not maintain a reaction more than a small fraction of a second. The problem is plasma containment. If that can be solved, it would be possible to build a practical fusion reactor.

The fuel for a working fusion reactor would likely be deuterium/tritium which is in effect unlimited since it can be extracted from seawater. Also the amount of fuel required is small because of the enormous amounts of energy produced in converting mass to energy. Fusion converts about 1% of mass to energy. Output would be that converted mass times the speed of light squared which is a very, very large number, in the neighborhood of consumed fuel mass times 10^15^.

Fusion is far less toxic to to the environment. With deuterium/tritium fusion the waste product is helium. All of the particle radiation comes from neutrons which only require shielding. Once the kinetic energy of the particles is absorbed, it's gone. There's no fissile waste that lingers for some half life.

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[-] altima_neo@lemmy.zip 40 points 1 year ago

Oh wow really? Hope it kicks off some good news for other plants in the future.

[-] RvTV95XBeo@sh.itjust.works 73 points 1 year ago

The good news - it's online, generating clean power, and hopefully demonstrating the safety and benefits of modern nuclear plants.

The bad news - it's $17B over budget (+120%) and 7 years behind schedule (+100%). Those kind of overages aren't super promising for investors, but perhaps there are enough lessons learned on this one that will help the next one sail a little smoother.

Either way, good to see it can still be done in the US.

[-] aksdb@feddit.de 22 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

I wouldn't call it "clean power". We still don't have a good solution for the nuclear waste.

Edit: Downvotes because I am not religiously defending a technology and pointing out that there are downsides (EVERYTHING HAS DOWNSIDES!). Too many people from reddit here already.

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[-] jon@lemmy.tf 35 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

Yeah, after literally bankrupting Westinghouse and costing us Georgians billions of dollars. I'm all for more nuclear power but this project was a colossal shitshow.

Georgia also has some shiny new solar factories so I'm interested to see how deep into renewables we can get in the next decade.

[-] danc4498@lemmy.world 28 points 1 year ago

Just in time for openheimer in IMAX!

[-] oyo@lemm.ee 25 points 1 year ago

The nameplate cost of this plant is $32 per watt. Even at smaller scales, utility-scale solar plants are $1 per watt. Do you know how many grid storage batteries you could buy with the extra $31 per watt? (6 hour storage is around $2.50 per watt or $.40/Wh.) You could build a solar plant 4x the nameplate capacity of the nuke (in order to match the capacity factor), and add 24 hours of storage to make it fully dispatchable, and still have enough money left over to build 2 more of the same thing. This doesn't even include the fact the nuclear has fuel costs, waste disposal, higher continued operational costs, and unaccounted publicly involuntarily subsidized disaster insurance.

[-] SpookySnek@sh.itjust.works 27 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

Let's play around with the thought of powering all of America with renewables. America’s coal, gas, petroleum and nuclear plants generate a combined baseload power of 405 GWavg, or “gigawatts average.” (Remember, a gigawatt is a thousand megawatts.) Let’s replace all of them with a 50 / 50 mix of onshore wind and CSP (solar), and since our energy needs are constantly growing, let’s round up the total to 500 GWs, which is likely what we’ll need by the time we finish. Some folks say that we should level off or reduce our consumption by conserving and using more efficient devices, which is true in principle. But in practice, human nature is such that whatever energy we save, we just gobble up with more gadgets. So we’d better figure on 500 GWs.

To generate this much energy with 1,000 of our 500 MW renewables farms, we’ll put 500 wind farms in the Midwest (and hope the wind patterns don’t change…) and we’ll put 500 CSP farms in the southwest deserts—all of it on free federal land and hooked into the grid. Aside from whatever branch transmission lines we’ll need (which will be chump change), here’s the lowdown:

Powering the U.S. with 500 wind and 500 CSP farms, at 500 MWavg apiece.

Steel ………………..  503 Million tonnes (5.6 times annual U.S. production)
Concrete …………..  1.57 Billion t (3.2 times annual U.S. production)
CO2 ………………….  3.3 Billion t (all U.S. passenger cars  for 2.5 years)
Land …………………  91,000 km2 (302 km / side)

35,135 sq. miles (169 mi / side)

(the size of Indiana)

60-year cost ……… $29.25 Trillion

That’s 29 times the 2014 discretionary federal budget.

If we can convince the wind lobby that they’re outclassed by CSP, we could do the entire project for a lot less, and put the whole enchilada in the desert:

Powering the U.S. with 1,000 CSP farms, producing 500 MWavg apiece.

Steel ……………….   787 Million t (1.6 times annual U.S. production)
Concrete ………….  2.52 Billion t (5.14 times annual U.S. production)
CO2 …………………  3.02 Billion t (all U.S. passenger cars for 2.3 years)
Land ………………..  63,000 km2 (251 km / side)

24,234 sq. miles (105.8 mi / side)

(the size of West Virginia)

60-year cost ……. $18.45 Trillion

#That’s to 18 times the 2014 federal budget.

Or, we could power the U.S. with 500 AP-1000 reactors.

Rated at 1,117 MWp, and with a reactor’s typical uptime of 90%, an AP-1000 will deliver 1,005 MWav. Five hundred APs will produce 502.5 GWav, replacing all existing U.S. electrical power plants, including our aging fleet of reactors.

The AP-1000 uses 5,800 tonnes of steel, 90,000 tonnes of concrete, with a combined carbon karma of 115,000 t of CO2 that can be paid down in less than 5 days. The entire plant requires 0.04km2, a patch of land just 200 meters on a side, next to an ample body of water for cooling. (Remember, it’s a Gen-3+ reactor. Most Gen-4 reactors won’t need external cooling.) Here’s the digits:

Steel ……….  2.9 Million t (0.5% of W  &  CSP / 0.36% of CSP)
Concrete …  46.5 Million t (3.3% of W  & CSP / 1.8% of CSP)
CO2 ………..  59.8 Million tonnes (2% of W & CSP / 1.5% of CSP)
Land ……….  20.8 km2 (4.56 km / side) (0.028% W & CSP / 0.07% of CSP)

1.95 sq. miles (1.39 miles / side)

(1.5 times the size of Central Park)

60-year cost ……… $2.94 Trillion

#That’s 2.9 times the 2014 federal budget.

Small Modular Reactors may cost a quarter or half again as much, but the buy-in is significantly less, the build-out is much faster (picture jetliners rolling off the assembly line), the resources and CO2 are just as minuscule, and they can be more widely distributed, ensuring the resiliency of the grid with multiple nodes.

And this is without even mentioning MSRs.

Was this project a complete shitshow of sheldon before seen-proportions?

Yes.

Does this mean that we should make the move towards powering the US from 100% renewables instead?

Well if you hate math and logic enough to even consider it, sure. Go ahead.

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[-] mwguy@infosec.pub 20 points 1 year ago

Even at smaller scales, utility-scale solar plants are $1 per watt.

Solar is being built at 100% speed. We're utilizing all the solar panel manufacturing capacity in the world building and deploying solar right now. There's simply not enough rare earth metals to increase production more. Wind, Hydro, Nuclear and Geothermal are all needed of we want to replace coal and LNG power plants.

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[-] GreenCrush@lemmy.world 21 points 1 year ago

Very good news. Nuclear power simply has way more benefits over fossil fuels. Not to mention it's statistically safer, despite what decades of anti-nuclear sentiment has taught the public.

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[-] HarrBear@lemmy.world 20 points 1 year ago

I'm all for investing in other forms of energy beyond fossil fuels, this is good news to me.

[-] majormoron@lemmy.world 19 points 1 year ago

Hey wow, it's great to see we are still persuing this avenue for energy, I hate how stigmatized nuclear became (with some good reasons). Like any technology, we just rushed to using it without understanding the full consequences when shit goes wrong. Hopefully we're better prepared now.

[-] ryannathans@lemmy.fmhy.net 19 points 1 year ago

Everything is a stopgap until fusion is available

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[-] Uno@monyet.cc 18 points 1 year ago

what does built "from scratch" mean? Just a more emphatic way of saying "built?" Or that it wasn't repurposed out of some already built building?

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[-] TheObserver@lemmy.world 18 points 1 year ago

Yay! Nuclear is the best!

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this post was submitted on 01 Aug 2023
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