FDR was much closer to being a Social Democrat than a Democratic Socialist. They sound similar but are quite different. Hell I think Bernie is closer to a Social Democrat, too. He praises the Nordic model and they're textbook social democracies.
I've always felt that's just pragmatism from Bernie, and in truth he's ideologically a democratic socialist. If it makes any difference this is coming from a democratic socialist who's a member of a social Democrat party.
I've always felt that's just pragmatism from Bernie,
If you read his book "It's Okay to Be Angry About Capitalism" it becomes very very obvious that this is the case. From quoting very radical anti-capitalists to tongue and cheek (somewhat) insider jokes such as naming the chapter on his time in mayoral politics "Socialism in one City", it shows he's definitely way more ideologically aligned with socialism than people give him credit for.
He wasn't even a social democrat. At the time, social democrats were democratic socialists, the shift away from reformist socialism happened around the 80s (some social democratic parties still hang onto reformist socialism, at least in theory).
He was a smart liberal who realized that in order to save capitalism from collapsing again, some regulations are necessary. In Europe, similar policy was often pushed by social democrats, which sometimes leads to confusion. But actual social democrats at the time went (or at least wanted to go) further, like nationalization and socialization of major industry, worker representation at companies, and increasing worker and union power in general.
Social democrats stated endgoal was a socialist society. FDR's endgoal was to protect and maintain capitalism.
Edit: Also, Bernie is definitely a reformist socialist, I will never understand why people think otherwise. He literally mentions Eugen Debbs, one of the most influencial socialists in American history, as his role model and hero every chance he can.. And he praises the nordic model because the nordic model was literally pushed by reformist democratic socialists.. Here is Olaf Palme, one of the most important figures when it comes to the nordic model and prime minister of Sweden (until he was murdered), explaining why he is a democratic socialist:
https://youtube.com/watch?v=7i2Ws1X5DSA
Just imagine a conservative politican, calling themselves a fascist, keeping a picture of Mussolini on their desk, saying he is their political role model. Would you claim that he isn't really a fascist? It's not even as if Bernie Sanders was dog whistling, he couldn't be any clearer about his believes.. Yet somehow, so many American leftists seem to sonehow doubt his intentions? Why? Because he isn't radical enough? Because he isn't throwing molotov coctails at the police? What does he have to gain from falsely calling himself a socialist??
The man's presidental campaign was giving 20% of major corporations to it's employees and having about half of the board of directors be elected by workers, among other stuff..
if you don't even want to acknowledge his values and his ideology simply because he is playing the politics game and is a reformist, send him to Europe, we would love a genuine leftist like him with so much charisma. I don't think you appreciate him..
Imagine dedicating your life to fight for a better life, involve yourself in the civil rights movement, work in various socialist groups, calling yourself a socialist and calling for major industry to be socialised, being constantly attacked by right wingers for your socialist believes, etc, only for fellow leftists denying that you are a "real socialist"..
We have to face that loads of high ranking "moderate" Dems would prefer a Republican to a progressive.
If a Republican gets in office, it makes it easier to get people vote lesser of two evils.
If a progressive gets in office, it's really hard to unseat them. They can barely manage to get House Reps out for moderates even with AIPAC money.
If Bernie had won 2016, he'd have gotten to name the DNC chair, he could of solidly ended in the failed neo liberal experiment.
We were really fucking close to fixing things, but after NH got their delegates stolen, I don't think itll happen.
I honestly think if a real progressive wins a presidential ~~party~~ primary, the standing party might disregard it.
I largely agree with you. Could you elaborate on your last sentence though?
presidential ~~party~~ primary
There was an autocorrect there, but if that doesn't clear it up:
A primary isn't binding.
That was the DNCs legal argument for why if they rigged it, that would be legal.
The entire primary process is merely a survey.
This is really a good argument for nonpartisan blanket primaries, which in other countries would be known as the first round of a two-round system. And it really should be advertised that way so people don't just write it off as "just a primary".
California adopts this system. You vote for one candidate in the primary. The top two candidates appear on the second round ballot. Most votes in the second round wins.
However, the fact that parties choose the candidates is really not unusual at all. In fact, the US is pretty unique in terms of how much influence voters have over the process. In most countries, interested candidates apply for the party's nomination, and then the party's central leadership or local party committee vets the applications and nominates their favourite candidate. Only the chosen candidate gets to stand with the party's rosette.
He also put Japanese Americans into internment camps, his New Deal policy led to institutional racism (red lining), and he ordered the FBI & IRS to investigate someone further left than him because he was worried they posed a political threat.
(Source on that last one: https://www.history.com/topics/crime/huey-long )
His left wing credentials are a bit lacking.
You're correct, but also missing the point. He implemented economic policies that were further left than any other US president.
I am pretty sure racism was institutionalized prior to New Deal....
Red Lining itself was definitely established well before the New Deal, and the practice had spread across the US by the end of the 1920s
There isn't a single leader in history who would pass your smell test. The reality is every human is complex and no one is all good or all bad. Except Andrew Jackson. Fuck that guy
But really, take a look, for example, at Lyndon Johnson. He was a renowned racist who ushered through the Civil Rights Act among many other progressive policies. He also escalated the Vietnam War. Dude did a lot of great things and a lot of bad things, and there's no single policy or act in his life that defines the entirety of his administration.
Actually just to wrench your caveat, Andrew Jackson was a major figure in the voting rights battle of the day, the right of non property owners to vote.
If it weren't for the Jackson admin, we wouldn't have the language we used to expand voting rights even further when those fights came to their crescendoes, and this country would still be entirely governed as a landowner oligarchy instead of just significantly like it is now.
That sounds sarcastic and cynical but there is a big difference.
And annoyingly he is (along with the other Roosevelt) still among our best presidents in history. We really shoupd demand more from our representatives.
Let's run through the recent story so people have it:
(First on FDR, that was before 45 years of anti-communist rhetoric, which frankly turned into anti-government-policy rhetoric.)
Jimmy Carter: Told people to conserve and got voted the fuck out.
Bill Clinton: After successive losses Bill figured out "it's the economy stupid". And when you run against an incumbent (Bush senior) you have to run from the center. So that's what he did. And he won.
Gore: After the population hopefully warmed up with Bill Clinton, he stuck his head out left with climate change. And bam he lost the election. Thanks 3rd party protest voters!
Obama: So guess what Obama learned? Don't stick your head out. He ran on broad "hope", hoping the ambiguity would be enough considering Bush's disastrous wars. And he won.
Hillary Clinton: After the population hopefully warmed up with Obama, she stuck her head out just a tiny itty little bit left with the Map Room to fight climate change. And guess what happened? Bam she lost. Thanks protest non-voters!
Biden: Just like Obama learned from Gore, Biden learned from Hillary that you don't stick your head out left. And he was running against an incumbent, so once again when you do that you run center. He's actually been governing more from the left, but he ran center.
And people are amazed that they don't run an extreme left platform? Every time they stick their head out a little itsy bitsy tiny bit left they lose. And the next guy learns to go to the center to win.
So how do you get them to move left? By giving them victories. Consistent and overwhelming victories. Because when they lose, like they've lost 20 years out of the last 24 years, they will go to the centre to find votes. You don't get big steps without the small steps.
Revisionist history. To pretend like Hillary went slightly left and Gore didn't have the election stolen from him is disingenuous at best.
They claim Hillary lost because she went a little left and it is the fault of... left wing voters? Hmm.
I'm of the opinion that Hillary lost because of the blatant super delegate shenanigans within the DNC. I know I was LIVID. However, I wasn't one of the folks who were so livid that they protest voted third party. I held my nose, suppressed my gag reflex, and voted for Hillary, though I really didn't want to.
We're seeing it now with leftists who refuse to vote for Biden. Thankfully Lemmy isn't really representative of the population. But they do exist.
We are entering perhaps the most important election in history. I know that's said at every election but this time, this could very well be the last free election we have.
A vote against Biden, regardless of how it's done, is a vote for fascism. Plain and simple. It's no longer theoretical or fantasy. Or exaggeration or whatever the right is trying to paint this as.
Biden won in 2020 because it was a vote against Trump. Not because Biden was a good candidate. It just was not as terrible as Trump.
We are entering an election where Trump is promising to punish his enemies. This rhetoric is dangerous to our democracy and nation. The fact that we are debating this is by itself scary.
Trump WILL bring authoritarianism to our country. He will install himself as king and our country will be a democracy in name only. Hell it wouldn't surprise me if the fascist regime goes on to rename our country "The Democratic Republic of the ~~Gilliad~~ United States" just to keep up appearances.
Anyone who wants our country to be free must vote Biden in November. Is he contributing to genecide? Yes. Is he doing enough for climate change? Of course note. Is he tackling minimum wage? Nope.
But at least he's willing to listen to you. We might even be able to change his mind after he is in his second term.
You will get none of those things if Trump wins.
Holy shit trying to blame hillarys loss on being too progressive. Somehow more progressive than Obama.
And you end up with the stupid idealist 3rd party voters that think “we’ll send a message with how we vote!” (Or don’t vote) not realizing the true impact they’re causing and the message it sends by having to go back to the center (which inches right more and more each time).
3rd party does have a place, but not right now with how screwed up things are.
Let's try the more recent history again.
Obama ran on "hope" but, more importantly ,"change" and won in a landslide. Then he governed from the center as a status quo technocrat. He lost a Democratic super majority and almost the presidency to a slice of white bread.
Hillary Clinton was the most establishment centrist candidate the Democrats could have possibly run. Her campaign thought they could sweep the country by choosing a radical clown for the Republican opponent. They helped the Trump campaign get free media attention to win the primary, then they lost to the clown.
After 4 years of the clown, the country would have elected a ham sandwich. Even so, it was looking a bit close, so Biden did what most Democrats do in a close election and leaned left, almost sounding like Bernie lite at times. You can chart his popularity through his presidency and every uptick coincides with a move to the left, and every downtick with a move to the right.
You also left out that Clinton only won because Perot was in the race and took voters from Bush, Carter lost because of the gas shortages, not to conserve and Biden won because he was against a historically unpopular incumbent. Your explanation is in complete and reductionist.
You also left out Kerry who ran as a moderate and lost to Bush.
Bill Clinton didn't run to the center, he ran to the right. Well past the center.
So guess what Obama learned? Don't stick your head out. He ran on broad "hope", hoping the ambiguity would be enough considering Bush's disastrous wars.
The "Hope" slogan was coined by Shepard Fairey on the poster of Obama he created and distributed independently of the Obama campaign, albeit with tacit approval. The campaign's actual slogans were "Change you can believe in" and "Yes we can."
Have you ever seen the man in the high castle? Well, we're definitely not in the worst timeline, but missing out on pals like Bernie shows that we're definitely not in the best either...
"Things could be worse" is always such a depressing reflection.
You're not wrong....but it sure is bleak isn't it!
Bernie ain't the first one that the corporate Democrats blocked either.
That's right. Filibuster proof control for 4 months of the last 24 years.
You can go even further, filibuster proof control for 4 months of the last 44 years.
I have no idea who this is because I'm not American.
From the comments, I assume his name was Bernie?
The person in the image is Franklin Delano Roosevelt, president of the United States from 1933 to 1945. He was effected to four terms and died in office, shortly after his fourth inauguration (now there's a two term limit). The name in the title refers to Bernie Sanders, who OP wishes had been nominated and elected in 2016.
Well written informative comment, nice!
I would add to the other explanation only that they both represent the progressive wing of the nation's politics for their time, and are analogous to each other in that regard. Bernie is beloved and renowned for his civil rights activism and his incorruptible concern for regular folks and trying to make things better for people. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bernie_Sanders#Political_positions
Bernie "walks the walk" as they say, and has for his entire career.
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