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[-] Yondu_the_Ravager@lemmy.world 53 points 1 year ago

It really fucking sucks that the auto industry lobbied the US government so goddamn hard in the 30’s - 70’s and got so much of this country built on car centric infrastructure while also systemically dismantling countless forms of public transit nationwide too. Most major cities and metropolitan areas used to have a pretty comprehensive streetcar system, yet where are they now? That’s right, manufacturers like GM bought majority stakes in those companies and then had their infrastructure dismantled all in the name of “progress.”

[-] Fried_out_Kombi@lemmy.world 16 points 1 year ago

As far as I'm aware, the only city in the western world that truly kept its pre-automobile streetcar network was Melbourne, Australia. A result is it today has the largest tram network of any city in the world.

It hurts my soul to imagine how basically every city in North America had similar networks, but they were almost completely annihilated, save for small fragments in a small handful of cities.

[-] Nouveau_Burnswick@lemmy.world 6 points 1 year ago

Toronto, Canada has kept its streetcar network since they were horse drawn. Today the network is 83km long, or a third of Melbourne's.

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[-] Kalkaline@lemmy.one 49 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

I did a bicycle+light rail for a year and it took me about 2x the time to get everywhere I needed to go, but I could do it in a car centric city. You can't expect rural folks to have access to public transportation though. Suburbs are a stretch too in some areas.

[-] Kolanaki@yiffit.net 31 points 1 year ago

Why can't we expect rural areas to have some form of mass transit? Having at least a bus system that services a rural area absolutely should be the expectation.

[-] KevonLooney@lemm.ee 34 points 1 year ago

Because a bus that serves a town of 500 people will come once an hour, at most. Also, many people can't walk far to/from the one bus stop. Busses do not solve a problem in small towns, because there is no traffic and plenty of parking.

[-] dylanmorgan@slrpnk.net 24 points 1 year ago

Switzerland has rail that serves small towns and it’s pretty frequent: https://youtu.be/muPcHs-E4qc

[-] HardlightCereal@lemmy.world 21 points 1 year ago

Your town underinvested in transit because everyone has a car, and they sprawled the architecture because everyone has a car. People got by in rural areas with trains just fine before cars were invented

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[-] Kolanaki@yiffit.net 15 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

@KevonLooney@lemm.ee, @Blamemeta@lemmy.world, @bob_wiley@lemmy.world

It seems that you're all only thinking about servicing just the small town itself, and not a larger bus line that services multiple smaller towns to get them to a larger city area and back, or to each other.

The usefulness is not in traversing the rural town. It's to get the fuck out of one.

[-] mothringer@lemmy.world 5 points 1 year ago

The larger city area will often be hundreds of miles away with not enough population in between to have more than one or two people at most in any given bus even stopping at multiple small towns. Mass transit it great in cities, but it desperately needs population density to be efficient.

[-] Kolanaki@yiffit.net 8 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

The larger city area will often be hundreds of miles away

How large is large? How are people getting goods at all living hundreds of miles away from a population center? It doesn't have to be a giant metropolitan like LA or NYC.

The same idea @DrAnthony@lemmy.world is putting into words better.

[-] DrAnthony@lemmy.world 8 points 1 year ago

Gosh, I think you'd have to be in the REAL middle of nowhere to be even 100 miles from a population center. Maybe out west in either of the Dakotas or Wyoming or something, but I imagine even then it's quite rare and represents a fraction of a percentage point of the population. "Never let perfect be the enemy of good"

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[-] PlatinumPangolin@kbin.social 4 points 1 year ago

Putting in even a single stop at a rural town could easily add 30 minutes each way to the route. Probably more, getting from a hub city to these rural towns is a good amount of driving with not much of anything between. A bus that stops at a rural 500 person town once every hour or so isn't moving enough people to be more efficient than cars. Now you want to do that for every town surrounding a hub city? The economy of scale simply doesn't exist for rural areas. Even suburbs stretch that a bit.

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[-] rockSlayer@lemmy.world 9 points 1 year ago

Having grown up in a rural area, here's what I think the solution would look like.

  1. streetcars within towns
  2. Roads dedicated to cars that pass next to towns, and moving the bulk of parking to a ramp just within the town limits
  3. "Frequent" (think once every hour) bus stops from town to town
  4. A train hub for the local area to desirable areas like cities
[-] Zehzin@lemmy.world 7 points 1 year ago

Why can't people in a 500 person town walk to the bus station? How is there traffic in them?? WHO IS PLANNING THIS

[-] mondoman712@lemmy.ml 8 points 1 year ago

+1 to this. Buses might not be the best mode for most in rural areas, but they are an essential lifeline for those who can't or can't afford to drive.

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[-] DrAnthony@lemmy.world 11 points 1 year ago

Now I can only speak for the US, but most major cities have ring roads or some sort of bypass that would be perfect for a hub and spoke sort of setup alongside them. Maybe it's just the fact that the university I went to famously has a light rail system and the concept is just embedded in me, but I'd imagine the uptake of a park and ride approach with stations out in the burbs (certainly not all of them, but laid out so that you don't need to go more than a burb or two over to reach a station) would be high enough to be worth it. Putting in some shops at the stations like an airport foodcourt would help offset building costs and whatnot to a degree over time as well. Then you could tie the hubs into other major cities in the state and you've got yourself a compelling transit system, doubly so if those cities have subways.

[-] Fried_out_Kombi@lemmy.world 7 points 1 year ago

A benefit of starting with a park-and-ride setup is, if you have good protected bike lanes and secure bike parking, you can encourage a lot of bike and ebike trips to the transit hubs. If every suburb isn't too far from a transit hub, that makes a compelling case for bikes and ebikes as first- and last-mile solutions for a lot of people. Maybe not everyone, and maybe not overnight, but definitely for a lot of people. And any improvement is still improvement.

[-] echo@sopuli.xyz 5 points 1 year ago

I understand what it means, but "last mile" is a really funny term because walking a mile is apparently inconceivable to the average american

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[-] HardlightCereal@lemmy.world 6 points 1 year ago

That's why we need to build trains and trams in rural and suburban areas to save time and money

[-] reallynotnick@lemmy.world 14 points 1 year ago

I'm struggling with this average vs potential. If I stand on a 3.5m wide sidewalk on average I'm going to see 15,000 people pass me by? And there is no room for potential improvement as the sidewalks are completely full on average? And how are we figuring cars can potentially be improved by 33%? Are all cars 3/4ths full already?

I'm very pro public transit, I'm just unclear what is being shown in this chart.

[-] Fried_out_Kombi@lemmy.world 11 points 1 year ago

They're showing capacity, i.e., a 3.5m sidewalk can move about 15k people per direction per hour. I'm guessing there's leeway for cars depending on intersection types/design, speed, etc., whereas there is much less variation in average speed for pedestrians.

[-] reallynotnick@lemmy.world 4 points 1 year ago

Average should be a measured real world quantity. A max theoretical value should never be average unless it's literally always at the max... on average.

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[-] credo@laguna.chat 13 points 1 year ago

Inefficient energy wise. Not timewise.

[-] biddy@feddit.nl 8 points 1 year ago

This visualization is space efficiency.

Obviously cars have terrible energy efficiency. The most efficient vehicle is a bicycle, since exercise is good for you it's arguably negative energy usage.

As for time efficiency, you have to consider car dependent development as a package. Everything spreads out, so overall there may not be an improvement in time efficiency, especially when you factor in the longer travel time of people not in cars. You could even consider the time spent working to pay for the car, or the time lost from people killed by the car, and I doubt cars would come out particularly time efficient then.

[-] mindrover@lemm.ee 6 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

They're measuring how many people can pass through a fixed point in space in an hour, not how long it takes one person to get from point A to point B.

So not really time or energy, but quantity.

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[-] Thadrax@lemmy.world 5 points 1 year ago

And usage of space. And money, at least if you include all the externalities.

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[-] Showroom7561@lemmy.ca 13 points 1 year ago

Yes, but context matters. Nobody is taking a train up the street to get groceries. And using a car (or a huge ass truck) for that is often overkill.

Bikes FTW!

[-] Durotar@lemmy.ml 12 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

People don't drive cars because they think they're efficient in absolute numbers. They drive cars, because cars are way more comfortable and faster than anything else in everyday life.

[-] magiccupcake@lemmy.world 11 points 1 year ago

They're only faster because transit infrastructure is built exclusively for cars at the expense of everyone else, including car drivers. Driving during rush hour sucks, but many people don't have a choice.

[-] JohnEdwa@kbin.social 10 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

Yup. I'd love to ditch my car but it would mean my 20 minute commute would take an hour longer each direction. And this is in (around) Helsinki, Finland, where public transport is really rather good.

[-] HardlightCereal@lemmy.world 7 points 1 year ago

Ain't nothing comfortable about being in an environment where one wrong move will end your life

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[-] Machefi@lemmy.world 8 points 1 year ago

I don't understand this visualisation. Perhaps I'm lacking context. Anybody willing to do ELI5... maybe ELI15? What quantity is being compared and what are potential passengers?

[-] WhipTheLlama@lemmy.world 8 points 1 year ago

The context is that they're showing one metric among many and are hoping you'll draw the conclusion they want: that cars are an inefficient way to travel. It'd be interesting to see distance and time metrics added. For example, while pedestrian capacity is pretty large, the distance travelled for any specific time period is short, so people aren't walking somewhere 100 miles away.

Similarly, door-to-door travel time can vary a lot. Suburban commuter rail around here is fast, but you need to drive to the station (because suburbs are designed for cars), wait for a train, commute on the train, then find your way to your actual destination from the station you get off the train at, so that might include walking or public transit.

Obviously, any one of the options can make the most sense in a given situation, but the infographic isn't trying to show that.

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[-] Default_Defect@lemmy.world 7 points 1 year ago

Unfortunately, I'm immunocompromised, so most of these options are too high risk.

[-] Lobohobo@lemmy.world 15 points 1 year ago

There is always exceptions and in some areas, you have to have some cars. But removing most of the cars and replacing most of the 8 lanes of traffic with alternatives would be more than enough.

[-] Default_Defect@lemmy.world 4 points 1 year ago

I wasn't even disagreeing. Not sure why I'm being argued against.

[-] shadeless@discuss.tchncs.de 7 points 1 year ago

From my perspective, they aren't arguing against you, but argue for your case (you, being immunocompromised, being one of the exceptions they are talking about)

[-] Default_Defect@lemmy.world 6 points 1 year ago

I suppose I'm too used to being on reddit and having people be needlessly aggressive and argumentative. You're right.

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[-] TauZero@mander.xyz 4 points 1 year ago

Does "BRT double lane" refer to one 3.5m lane out of two, both together transporting 86k/hour due to leapfrogging efficiencies, or to both lanes together at 7m total? I think it's important to maintain consistency with the 3.5m theme!

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this post was submitted on 27 Jul 2023
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