London’s latest effort to clear bad air is contested but necessary: The scheme obliges drivers of the most polluting vehicles inside the ultra-low emission zones to pay £12.50 ($16) a day. (www.economist.com)

submitted 2 years ago by boem@lemmy.world to c/europe@feddit.de

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[-] Blaze@sopuli.xyz 10 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago)

That must be good for the quality of air, no?

[-] boem@lemmy.world 9 points 2 years ago

Despite the backlash, expect other cities to copy that.

[-] starlinguk@kbin.social 2 points 2 years ago

Some might, some won't. It'd be stupid in Berlin because of the Bezirken (which have people of all incomes), but in Amsterdam (where only rich people live in the centre) it'd be fine.

[-] CookieJarObserver@sh.itjust.works 8 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago)

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[-] Conowelle@lemmy.ca 12 points 2 years ago

Poor people can afford $40000 vehicles, but they can’t afford a $1500 e bike?

[-] CookieJarObserver@sh.itjust.works 5 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago)

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[-] Conowelle@lemmy.ca 7 points 2 years ago

Yes it can carry three children if you get a cargo e bike, those cost slightly more, but still cheaper than a car by far.
Yes that cargo e bike can carry a full sized refrigerator it can carry groceries
Are you afraid the rain is gonna melt you? I bike to work in the rain and I’m still alive and well, I just wear a poncho to keep dry.
Ya you can get a car for 1k but what about the recurring costs of insurance, gas, repairs, etc…

[-] federalreverse@feddit.de 7 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago)

So why do feel there is a need to carry kids to school by car? In inner-city London, no less.

Also, you can get a working car for 1k€$ but that's obviously not the full cost. You need to pay for parking, maintenance, insurance, taxes and, finally, gas.

[-] pizzaiolo@slrpnk.net 3 points 2 years ago

If you have 3 kids and a car, I'm sorry, you chose poverty

[-] HeartyBeast@kbin.social 12 points 2 years ago

For context, virtually all petrol cars built after 2006 comply with the new rules. There was a scrappage scheme that paid you to get rid of your polluting vehicle.

In Haringey- one of the outer London boroughs affected by the ULEZ expansion 60% of families don’t have cars.

It’s not the poor who are driving around the borough

[-] Wirrvogel@feddit.de 10 points 2 years ago

Make it "x" percent of your income then, so rich people have to pay an amount that hurts them and poor people have to pay an amount that hurts them, so everyone is hurt and thinks about using public transport and then make public transport on top cheaper for the poor.

[-] GissaMittJobb@lemmy.ml 8 points 2 years ago

Given that money from congestion taxes most often go to fund public transportation, which poorer people use to a larger extent, this is not a law against the poor.

[-] abraham_linksys@sh.itjust.works 8 points 2 years ago

London has one of the best transit systems in the world. A car is not necessary.

If you want to take up a shitload of extra space and pollute everywhere you go with fumes and noise then you get to pay extra. It's a choice, not a necessity.

[-] CookieJarObserver@sh.itjust.works 2 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago)

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[-] abraham_linksys@sh.itjust.works 6 points 2 years ago

My friends we're not talking about America here. There is infrastructure and a social culture beyond "why should government help it's own people fuck you get a car". There are lots of ways to get around by bus or train or bike and they're all way cheaper which is good for poor folks.

In America you'd be right, we make our poor and everyone else pay 10x what they'd spend on transit to pay for a car, car insurance, gas, parking, toll roads and repairs. Then defund every other form of transit, build our cities for cars instead of people and call it Freedom.

[-] CookieJarObserver@sh.itjust.works 2 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago)

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[-] HeartyBeast@kbin.social 4 points 2 years ago

The public transport into London is pretty good

[-] abraham_linksys@sh.itjust.works 2 points 2 years ago

If you live outside the city, you don't pay taxes in the city.

If you don't pay taxes in the city, it means local taxpayers are paying for YOUR car to wear down roads, add to traffic congestion, make lots of noise and take up space wherever you park it.

This is why there are toll roads, parking fees, fuel taxes and other additional charges (in this case for noise and pollution) in cities.

So if poor people living outside the city REALLY can't use public transit to get to the city (which I doubt tbh I've been all over Europe for work including suburbs and rural areas entirely by train and bus) then they just have to fucking pay for the extra space, pollution and damage they cause with their cars.

Cars don't deserve special treatment so they can fuck up cities even more than they already do. Just look at American cities, they're all roads and parking lots thanks to cars 😭

[-] starlinguk@kbin.social 2 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago)

I'm inthe countryside outside Berlin. The buses are okay. Even places in the middle of nowhere have buses.

[-] pizzaiolo@slrpnk.net 2 points 2 years ago

Do the poor have cars? Don't they ride the bus?

[-] rynzcycle@kbin.social 6 points 2 years ago

Or the tube, or trains, or the clipper, or the DLR, or the overground...

There is absolutely no need for a vehicle (aside from work gear/deliveries) for most people (I can think of a few cases, but largely its quite accessible) inside the ULEZ.

Public transport is easier, cheaper, and faster, and would be even more so if there weren't as many cars.

[-] starlinguk@kbin.social 4 points 2 years ago

Or the Tube, or the train. London has fantastic public transport. You don't need a car.

[-] NotAPenguin@kbin.social 2 points 2 years ago

I imagine poor people will appreciate better air quality and less noisy cars around too.
London has pretty good public transport, people shouldn't be driving.

[-] XTornado@lemmy.ml 0 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago)

I agree that is not great but in some places for example in Barcelona have a similar thing, they have exceptions for the low income people or some other situations.

[-] Blaze@sopuli.xyz 1 points 2 years ago

There are low emissions zones in Barcelona?

[-] starlinguk@kbin.social 1 points 2 years ago

There are low emissions zones in many cities. I've paid for a sticker for Berlin (no, I don't take my car into Berlin, but I do use the ring road).

[-] Blaze@sopuli.xyz 1 points 2 years ago

Indeed, but I've been to Barcelona a few times and never noticed this kind of zones

[-] bigkix@lemm.ee 7 points 2 years ago

So, those $16 surely go to offsetting CO2 emissions of that car?

[-] Tvkan@feddit.de 15 points 2 years ago

Maybe. But the fee mostly reduces the amount of trips done by car in the first place, causing less CO2 to be emitted in the first place, whoch is even better.

[-] bigkix@lemm.ee 4 points 2 years ago

I really hope that less emitted CO2 in that ultra-low zone saves the world! 🤞

[-] Tvkan@feddit.de 4 points 2 years ago

I agree with your sarcasm, these programs should definitely be expanded to more and larger areas.

[-] tal@kbin.social 2 points 2 years ago

I would guess that this deals with NO2 or particulate matter, not carbon dioxide. The first two have local effects.

[-] Hogger85b@kbin.social 1 points 2 years ago

Like Subsidiarizes the local transport network yes

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this post was submitted on 26 Jul 2023

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