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submitted 6 months ago* (last edited 6 months ago) by spujb@lemmy.cafe to c/unpopularopinion@lemmy.world

(Content warning, discussions of SA and misogyny, mods I might mention politics a bit but I hope this can be taken outside the context of politics and understood as a discussion of basic human decency)

We all know how awful Reddit was when a user mentioned their gender. Immediate harassment, DMs, etc. It's probably improved over the years? But still awful.

Until recently, Lemmy was the most progressive and supportive of basic human dignity of communities I had ever followed. I have always known this was a majority male platform, but I have been relatively pleased to see that positive expressions of masculinity have won out.

All of that changed with the recent "bear vs man" debacle. I saw women get shouted down just for expressing their stories of being sexually abused, repeatedly harassed, dogpiled, and brigaded with downvotes. Some of them held their ground, for which I am proud of them, but others I saw driven to delete their entire accounts, presumably not to return.

And I get it. The bear thing is controversial; we can all agree on this. But that should never have resulted in this level of toxicity!

I am hoping by making this post I can kind of bring awareness to this weakness, so that we can learn and grow as a community. We need to hold one another accountable for this, or the gender gap on this site is just going to get worse.

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[-] workerONE@lemmy.world 19 points 6 months ago

Nobody needs my comment but here it goes. I don't take it personally, it has nothing to do with me. I don't have any issue with people's answers. I know that many people have PTSD and bad experiences and they'd prefer to avoid weird situations like this.

But privately there's a part of me that likes to solve problems and consider everything for myself. I think the question is set up to imply danger by comparing a wild bear to a strange man. If the scenario were different I would expect different results: You are hiking in the desert and you become lost and you have no water. After several days you see a man who offers you water and directions. Do you choose to turn away and continue into the desert or do you accept the man's offer to help provide water and directions to safety?

I have had traumatic experiences with people and one day I realized that I was negatively effected by them and I chose to start practicing Jiu-Jitsu where you need to be in close contact with people as you struggle to gain advantage and win points. I no longer feel the same fear and apprehension about being close to people like I did before.

If people feel a certain way I just wish them healing.

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[-] mightyfoolish@lemmy.world 18 points 6 months ago

The most accurate response I can think of is many people on Lemmy want to be technically right (and I am no exception to this myself). You can see this in our many debates if the Democrats are a hindrance or the "best of the temporary solutions we have" in our debates in the best way to eventually form a working government.

The post in question (man vs bear) summarizes how much fear men have caused women throughout history in meme hyperbole fashion. Most people would "just get the point" that the meme is actually making. Women have suffered a lot from men. However, some of these Lemmy users correctly point out that its predatory behavior that should be called out; not "man vs woman". After all, anyone regardless of age, religion, sexual orientation, gender, etc. can be a predator. The meme is correct but those who oppose the meme are "technically correct" as well.

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[-] Cosmicomical@lemmy.world 17 points 6 months ago

I've been away for a few weeks and I've missed this whole thing I think, does anybody have a link?

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[-] Hypx@fedia.io 17 points 6 months ago

The same is true of all social media platforms. There are always bad actors and jerkasses that have been banned everywhere else. Eventually, the admins of said social media platform must crackdown and ban those people. Eventually, that will happen to the Fediverse.

[-] spujb@lemmy.cafe 13 points 6 months ago

You are absolutely correct, but I am calling for that to happen sooner rather than later 👍

[-] Smoogs@lemmy.world 16 points 6 months ago* (last edited 6 months ago)

Well my block list on lemmy grew a whole lot faster and is longer now than on it ever was on Reddit.

But This was even before the bear debacle.

Lemmy is not as good as advertised.

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[-] Gonzako@lemmy.world 14 points 6 months ago

Ya'll don't like getting called out on your bullshit. Ofc I'm not gonna let myself get grouped into something worse than a fucking animal. Go have your rights and empathy activism someway it doesn't clump men in the "not people" category

[-] spujb@lemmy.cafe 15 points 6 months ago

You are absolutely entitled to that. In fact I quite agree with you on many levels.

None of that makes harrassment okay. Which is the topic of this discussion.

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[-] kandoh@reddthat.com 14 points 6 months ago

The introverted tech nerds have always had a problem with dismissing anything they don't immediately understand

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[-] chonglibloodsport@lemmy.world 14 points 6 months ago

I don’t know how you can solve this. Lemmy has become a refuge for outcasts. Men with social/personality issues are the biggest group of outcasts. Women are much less likely to be outcasts and so have far less interest in being here.

To create an environment that is welcoming to a particular group takes a certain critical mass of people from that group. If you’re such an extremely small minority you’re going to have a very difficult time reaching that critical mass and the negative environment further discourages people from joining.

[-] Ceedoestrees@lemmy.world 14 points 6 months ago* (last edited 6 months ago)

If outcasts are people who don't feel welcome in any irl or mainstream communities; women are just as likely to be outcasts. Women online can avoid outing themselves because even female oriented online support spaces get brigaded by men. There are a handful of female artists in my circle who identify as male online because they kept getting creepy dms. They still get them, of course, but less so. Less violent and rapey.

Who knows how many women are out there, lurking in the shadows, just trying to look at memes about linux and communism.

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[-] worldofbirths@lemmy.world 13 points 6 months ago

Everyone has a vested interest in 50% of the population feeling good about the other half. And certainly we should all feel safer about being with fellow humans than with a bear. The fact that some of us don't feel that way means we should try to make them feel safer.

Thanks for the post. Does anyone have advice on how to become a moderator?

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[-] Zerlyna@lemmy.world 12 points 6 months ago

Whoa I missed this whole man bear thing. Is it like ManBearPig?

[-] spujb@lemmy.cafe 12 points 6 months ago
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[-] Bonehead@kbin.social 12 points 6 months ago

This is essentially the problem with forums that grow faster than mods can keep up. Everything is fine until something like this comes along. When the brigades come out, trying to maintain order and read every comment for content becomes impossible. Unfortunately all we can do is hold each other accountable. Those that can take the abuse stand their ground for others that can't. And when the dust settles, hopefully someone will have learned something. Even if that something is just reinforcing their choice. It's all part of maturing, both for the site and for the people. Just don't let it get you down. This site is not representative of the general population. Neither is Reddit. There are more people in this world that empathize with you than there are on this site.

[-] LazyBane@lemmy.world 12 points 6 months ago

This is really the terminal issue with Reddit alternatives. They are just Reddit minus the most recent controversy as of foundation. Reddit is overall just a popular content aggregation website with poorly design discussion features.

Upvotes and down votes, while intended to help users weed out bad arguments and spam, only achive in promoting sophistry and tribalism. What ends up getting upvoted is what "wins" the argument, while good arguments that come from unpopular viewpoints get downvoted.

And with that comes all the toxic elements from old Reddit ruat we all hope just won't be a part of our replacements. Reddit's format works at a smaller scale, where users are typically more enthusiastic and therefor better informed, but as the sites get larger you'll notice they typical hyper-snarky "owned with facts and logic" attitude take hold of a community as more people with a weaker investment jump on the bandwagon and upvote everything that makes them feel smart.

Eventually, the site becomes just like Reddit, but for a smaller and more insulated community, and users begin to question why they're here instead of Reddit which has the established user base that can reliably cover more topics you are interested in.

We have not learnt from history, and we are doomed to repeat it. Maybe it'll be different in the future.

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this post was submitted on 13 May 2024
501 points (100.0% liked)

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