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this post was submitted on 08 Jun 2024
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I wrote this originally for the other thread but it was deleted.
To start with, it's clear that your self-esteem is very low, and you've internalised an intense criticism of yourself. If you can access one, please speak to a professional, licenced, therapist.
They will be able to help you build a staircase out, but it will take time. Please try and resist the snake oil salesmen who offer quick solutions, which are designed to fail to keep you coming back.
To answer the question, at 13 I had developed a crush on a girl in my class, and I was not chill about it. To be clear, I didn't do anything bad, but it was intense and with 20 years of hindsight she didn't deserve it. I'd always be staring at her, I'd try to sit near her, I'd set really really obvious MSN status messages about her. During a particularly dark patch I literally carved her name in to my arm with a compass. Throughout all of it she was nothing but kind, and consistent. She didn't love me. She avoided being around me as much as possible to not give any hint there might be something. She never mocked or teased me.
There were two girls I knew who would speak to me. They were in relationships with two of my close friends, and were "safe" from possibly becoming the focus of my affection, but also kinda stuck with me because not spending breaktimes in school with your bf would be a scandal of the highest order.
Over the next 4 years we'd have various conversations, and they'd try and help me realise that what I was doing towards my crush, a) scared off a lot of people, and b) made it very clear to girls who may have had a crush on me (which I refused to believe was possible because I was destined to die cold and alone) that I wasn't interested in anyone else.
So by the time I was 17 I had basically alienated myself from all the other girls in school and convinced myself that all my worst thoughts about myself were true, because, well, yeah, obviously.
Then two things changed.
First was that I finally accepted that whatever other reasons there were for my situation, my behaviour was making it worse, and that I could at least stop doing that. It wouldn't solve everything, obviously, but it would allow things to be a tiny bit better. I needed to chill the fuck out, and let go of this obsession with my crush.
And the other was that, because by this point these two girls were my friends, not just my friend's gfs, the idea of just speaking normally to women wasn't scary. Flirting was still terrifying, but some switch flipped in my mind from women being only something to attract and sleep with, like some sort of conquest, to being people just like me who are perfectly happy to just talk about stuff, just like my guy friends. Because I really valued their friendship, I realised that it made me happier than whatever the fuck I was doing to myself about my crush.
So by being more chill, I'd be less sad, and by just being friends with people I liked, I'd be happier. Win win.
After a few months of being a bit more chill, and focusing instead on just being a person who it was nice to talk to and be around (yknow, not constantly trying to look down someone's top) I was at a tiny local gig of maybe 30 people that my friend's band was playing at. One of the girls in the group I was with had spotted a girl we didn't know, was our age, but didn't go to our school. She was enjoying the our friend's set, but seemed to be on her own. She introduced herself to this girl and asked if she wanted to hang out with us, that the band were our friends and that I (because I did a bunch of computer stuff for them, like burning cds, storing recordings, etc) could give her a free CD and can probably answer any questions she may have.
This meant we got talking, we had a good evening, at the end of the gig I asked her for her email/msn so I could add her to the newsletter for gig announcements, and that I'd be happy to send her new songs. She gives me it. While I think she's beautiful, I have no intention to use it for anything else. That would be the actions of a creepy mf, and I was chill now. She's just a person who happens to like a band I'm involved with, nothing more.
Over the next, I dunno, 6 months or so, we go from talking occasionally to every day. She introduced me to Ghibli anime, which gave us even more to talk about.
I end up talking about her all the time to my friends, male and female. They all encourage me to ask her out. I quite literally have a panic attack. I'm terrified that by asking her she will hate me and I'll lose a really close friend, by being a creepy twat like before. I bitch for weeks about how it's bullshit that men are meant to make the first move, and one of my female friends finally snaps and says something like "you just said you were up until 3am talking to her about what porn you both like and that she'd really like to try X/Y/Z out, but doesn't have anyone to do it with. How can you not see that she's super in to you?!"
I finally pluck up courage to ask her out on a date, just a meal in town, she immediately accepts. I have a panic attack in the restaurant, I am sick multiple times. It was by all accounts a terrible, terrible, date. I think I spent more like talking to the toilet than her.
She suggests we go for a walk around instead. Which we do. I spend the rest of the evening hoping that we'll find a corner shop that is open so I can get some gum, but we don't find any. We wander around town, getting physically closer with each passing bench, she tucks her self in under my arm "because it's cold" (in June?!). When she has to get her bus home, I can tell she wants me to kiss her. I cannot kiss her, our first kiss, fuck, my first kiss ever, with whatever remnants of stale sick are on my breath. She may be down, I am not.
I give her a big hug and peck on the cheek, say I had a great evening, panic attack aside, and please call me when you get home so I know you're safe.
An hour or so later the phone rings, and we end up again talking in to the early morning, as things get increasingly explicit.
The next week I ask her if she wants to be my gf. She immediately accepts. I invite her to the friend-who-told-me-she-was-in-to-me's 18th birthday party in town. Probably half of our class have been invited, including many of the girls I'd alienated myself from. This time I eat very little to make sure there is nothing to puke up should I have another panic attack, and get some gum. She arrives after me, and my friend would later claim "how did HelloThere get a girlfriend?" was something people spoke to her more about than her actual birthday.
Later, I walked her to her bus, and this time we did kiss. It was similateously the most under, and over, whelming experience of my life to that point. Physically it was pleasant - we both knew that she was my first kiss, and that I wasn't hers - so the fact that I didn't immediately smash my teeth in to hers was a win. But emotionally it was a rollercoaster. I don't want to suggest that from that point on I was some sort of Cassanova, because I am not at all, but the amount of validation I felt in those 15 seconds or so was immense. This was the proof that this person I thought was incredible actually did like me. Why? No idea, I'm literal human garbage, but she thinks I'm not! Holy fuck! Or she's in to garbage. Either way, yay!
Over the next 4 months or so we tick off the rest of the firsts, and gave our virginities to each other.
You asked specifically about sex. Losing my virginity was one of the least enjoyable sexual experiences I've ever had in my life. But I'll cherish it forever. Emotionally, like the kiss, it was everything all at once.
We broke up after about 18 months. I'd moved away and gone to university, and had moved on. While I was the one who broke up with her, the aftermath I handled terribly and was just a prick. I left horrible voicemails and would later drunk text non-apologies - she ultimately blocked my number, Facebook, everything. And she was right to.
After a few months I had calmed down and got better at regulating my emotions, and eventually I went to therapy and got help with abandonment and esteem issues.
Many, many, years and 3 more failed relationships on, I'm 9 years in to a very stable long term relationship with someone I absolutely adore. My single goal is to not repeat the same mistakes as before, and we tackle everything as a team. If we're feeling uneasy we speak to each other and help each other. I'm so proud of what we have built together. She is the smartest, most empathetic and kindest person I know. I count myself so lucky that she is my best friend, a willing big spoon, and I get to play with her boobies. It's incredible.
But it all started with me accepting a sliver of responsibility for myself, that I had a small ability to make things better, and if I did then maybe others would respond positively to it, and want to be around me.
I really enjoyed reading your story. It's honest about your faults and kind to yourself at the same time. I hope I can find a way to see my own life in a similar way.
Thank you.
It's taken a long time, and I'll be honest and admit that a good amount of what was written above was by the more adult and rational parts of my mind, than the emotive bits. I'm still working through a lot of shame, and on bad days it's still floods back, but usually less than before.
There's many thousands of steps ahead of you, but you'll get there, I believe in you.
Sorry to say it, since it was a very elaborate story but that doesn't work for me because.
I'm not American, all those things you experienced are movie stereotypes to me.
I'm old as fuck, to get a woman NOW I should be successful, charming and with a decent job. I'm not a kid, cinema and pop corn won't cut it.
More on 2, my situation won't change at all, my character traits are set on stone and well defined by now. I'm not desirable. And I will always do a mediocre job under minimal wage.
I have 0 friends. But that doesn't really bother me. But I'm well aware women want someone socially active.
I am not American, I'm British.
The purpose of my story was to try and explain how I didn't go from being a social pariah (and thus, undateable) to a loving relationship in one step, it took years and thousands of steps.
The hard truth is that you are right that your current self isn't ready for a relationship. But, as shown by asking the question in the first place, a part of you wants that to change, and by your other answers, a different part of you doesn't want that change.
Let's take another scenario. You could do a marathon. You may run it, you may walk it, you may roll in a wheelchair, but you could do it...eventually. Today, you can't. But today you may be able to run/walk/roll 1km. And tomorrow, or the day after, maybe 1.1km. And next week, maybe 1.2.
Eventually, if you manage to keep at it, you will, one day, be able to do something that today you cannot.
But wanting to is the first step, and a bit of you does want to.
So, step one, if you truly have no friends, are there people you like at work? What are your interests? Do you have a hobby?
I'm unemployed. I despised my abusive job. Hated everyone. Videogames, hate everything else/failed.
I don't believe you hate everything.
What is the last film you saw you enjoyed? Or song, or book?
Believe that. Trust me.
I like music but I don't see the point. Bought a guitar and did nothing with it.
Liking music means you don't hate everything.
What bands, or artists do you like?
Nu metal? Only the 2000s most mainstream ones.
Hah, excellent, me too! Every now and again I'll put Follow the Leader on and try to make whatever the hell noises it is Davis does π
Whats your favourite album, or track?
Some Linkin, some Deftones, some SOAD. Nobody likes that music, especially women here.
All good choices, Deftones self-titled album is incredible.
You're getting ahead of yourself, we've only just left the house for your first 100m walk, it doesn't matter what other runners like.
Go and listen to some music you like, and let yourself enjoy it. Don't worry about anything else right now.
I've been listening the music I enjoy for over 2 decades by now, nothing changed. I'm fucked.
You're not fucked, that's just the bit that wants you to be sad talking, instead of the bit that wants to be happy.
You may have been listening to it for 20 years, but do you let yourself feel any positive emotion during it?
I mostly feel anger, a bit of sexual desire and desire to tell everyone to go fuck themselves.
That's not necessarily a bad thing, you can use music to process emotions you may avoid at other times.
What gives you a positive emotion? What makes you slightly smile?
Seeing people fail. Seeing the bad guy win in a movie.
I wouldn't class revenge fantasy as positive, if I'm honest.
Parts of your brain will fight you on this, but try and think of something "nice" that makes you feel a tiny bit better, or happier, or relaxed.
For me, it's stroking my cats and/or going for a walk, but it could be pretty much anything really - as long as it isn't "I just want to watch the world burn" type stuff.
This isn't easy, it won't happen over night, but if you keep trying to identify something like this, and then purposefully choose to do it on a regular basis, you'll have done the first 100metres.
Try to remember that part of your brain wants you to be sad and angry and depressed. You've listened to that bit a lot. But the bit that wants to be happier, that believes things can be better, is what is keeping you replying to this thread. Practise listening to that bit more.
I wish you the very best of luck. You can do this. You are worth it.
No I don't believe that. Not because I'm a contrarian but because I know what women want and that's not me and don't wanna fake myself into being another person.
I agree, you are not a contrarian, but the bit of your mind that wants you to be sad all the time is. Why? Because it keeps you sad by stopping you from thinking about the contrary, as in being a tiny bit happier.
Just because you can't complete a marathon today, does not mean that you are not capable, eventually and with training, to do so. But you have to start with the first 100m, and that bit of your mind is stopping you from even trying to do 100m, with the justification that because you can't do 42km there's no point to do 100m.
Or to put it another way, if you want to listen to Chop Suey, you listen to Chop Suey, right? You don't justify not listening to it because you don't have time to listen to SOAD's entire discography.
Walking 100m, listening to that single song, or identifying something that makes you feel ever so slightly happier (not revenge!) is all the same thing. It's all just taking a step. Nothing more.
You are not being fake by letting yourself enjoy something you enjoy. Again, that is the little bit of your brain wanting you to be sad convincing the rest of your brain to stop you doing that thing, because if you do that thing, and you're a tiny bit happier, it gets less powerful.
Mate, think of it this way, how can you possibly know what another person wants, and what makes them happy, man or woman, when you are struggling to accept that you are simply allowed to feel even the smallest amount of happiness?
If you can't understand that for yourself, and you spend all day every day inside your head, how can you possibly be certain that you're correct for 7 billion others?
If you were right for 7 billion, then 1 more should be pretty trivial, surely?
Or, maybe it's because that it's just a lie the sad bit of your brain is screaming at the rest of your brain, just to keep you sad.
Negative thoughts are a part of you just as much as they are a part of me, but they are not all of you, and you are not only them.
And the same applies for positive thoughts, we contain a mix of both, not only one or the other.
Nobody, not even the most social dude has access to 7 billion people. I have access to just a few dozens at best, I'm a poor immigrant and do you think Italian girls like brown poor people? Unless you're a fucking football player or a very stereotype latino party animal they don't. Just give up mate, the moment you described how you got laid as basically a kid gives me less hope. Your life is a fantasy to me. I will not get better and fucking listening music won't change jackshit on my life.
I'm a bunch of weird and undesirable traits put together plus I'm not a model look wise and I'm poor. NOTHING about it will change, ergo meaning nobody will come. I'm 35 ffs
I'm 34, the point I'm making is age doesn't matter for what we are talking about. You are in a very similar mental and social state to what I was then. I've also relapsed multiple times since then. This shit is hard. But you are not alone, there is light at the end of the tunnel, but you can't see it because the tunnel is insanely fucking bendy just to fuck with you.
I am sure there are Italian women that match what you describe, just as there are British women like that too. But I am certain there are others who aren't like that, and value different things.
Now, do they want someone who is only looking for the negative? No, they don't. But that is the exact same as the other part of your brain that is not wanting that either. You are not defined by your sadness. While it is a part of you, and always will be, it is not all of you.
I also appreciate that given how fucked the political situation is in Italy right now, and with a fascist in charge, being an immigrant must be incredibly difficult. But you are not defined by what racists say. Fuck those cunts. The best way to get revenge, on them, is to live the life that proves them wrong.
Again, your continued replies give me reason to believe you can get better. You just need to take the hardest imaginable step, which is to open the door and start the first 100m.
But you're right, listening to a song you like isn't going to change your life. But it will help you remember what feeling a tiny bit happier feels like. It may even give you a way to deliberately make yourself feel a bit happier when you're having a bad day. When I'm really down I usually watch films I loved as a kid - like The Mask - and, for those 90 or some mins, I feel a bit better. Not a lot, but just enough to stop me falling further. And then I have to rebuild.
There are many steps left in the tunnel, but going forward will get you to the end. You can't see it, I know it feels like it doesn't exist and you're completely alone in the dark, but it is there, and you're not alone. You can do this.
The only reason I'm replying is because I'm sick of people bs me. There's no tunnel. Is just my entire life. There's nothing to rebuild, your dumb comparisons make no sense. I'm starting to feel that you're doing this just to feel better about yourself "hey at least I didn't finished like this loser and got to bang a chick".
GIVE UP.
We're not bullshitting you, we are trying to show you the way out.
And yeah, you got me, doing this does make me feel better. I feel better when I can use my experiences to help people. It helps me to remind myself to be kind to myself. Everything I am saying to you applies to me as well.
I won't give up on myself, so why would I give up on you? You are just as valuable and important as I am.
Ignore the bit in your mind telling you to push us away, again, it's scared that you're realising that you are not it, and that it's losing some control. It has got very used to being in control, but it is a part of you, you are not a part of it.
STFU.
There's no bit pushing me to do this. I'm the one telling you that you're wrong and you're annoying as fuck. Stop trying to be a fucking psychoanalyst, yeah you got to taste some saggy tits, that doesn't give you the right to tell wtf I need to do with fucking life clown.
I didn't asked for dating advice, you got some girl that pity fucked you? Good for you ππΌππΌππΌ... I'm not you and I'll never be, and probably for the better, fuck me if I wanna become anything like you.
Friend, you were the one who asked the question what it's like. I've told you, and also explained how you can get from where you are to being in a relationship.
I can't force you to seek help, but if in the future you ever feel like you'd like to chat, feel free to message me.
You don't have to push everyone away, not everyone is out to hurt you. I hope you realise this before it's too late.
No, you didn't just answered me, otherwise we're wouldn't be on this stupid rebuttal... If you just answered the question I wouldn't had the need to respond you.
Now you're just lying to yourself, this is from my original comment.
You literally told me what to do even when I didn't asked for it. There you're just picking a extract of your answer. If it was only that then it would've been ok, clown.
If it was only that, it wouldn't be representative of reality. For me to be able to have a good relationship required a lot of change. Namely I had to accept some responsibility for my situation and stop pretending it was only other people's fault.
A relationship is a partnership, it requires everyone involved to bring good things to it. If they don't, it will fail.
You don't have to be beautiful, or rich, or famous to be in a relationship, but if you aren't nice to speak to, or be around, trustworthy, caring, considerate, etc, why would anyone want to spend their life with you?
You refuse to except your attitude and actions have contributed in any way to your situation. As a result, you will never be in a relationship.
It's your decision. Your circumstances won't change over night, it will take a long time and a lot of work, but if you really want to, you're absolutely capable of it. You are not fundamentally broken and irreparable.
You realize way worse people in this fucking planet managed to marry and have kids right? I'm a fucking saint in comparison. I'm not got to change shit in my life, I don't wanna become someone else. That's the way I am, I'm nobody's friend, nobody enemy. I'm loyal and don't betray anyone, if that isn't enough for the world, then fuck'em. It is their fault not mine. I'm not a fucking criminal for being myself.
So your bar is what, not being an absolute cunt?
You're aware that people are not typically in consentual relationships with bad people, right?
Being shit scared of your partner is not a good thing.
Scared? You speak like I'm about to hit a woman. I don't want to become someone else, I will never change. Blame the world for that. Nothing is going to change because the world still the fucking same. I'm not going to move a single finger just to be more "appetizable". Fuck them
No, I don't think you're going to hit someone, but you did say worse people than you are in relationships, and I was reminding you that bad people do hit women, and scare them in to never leaving. Neither of us think that is the type of relationship you want.
As I've said before, one day you'll realise that your attitude contributes to - but didn't create - your situation. Insisting you are utterly powerless keeps you in that hole.
I am not saying you need to change. What I am saying is that the negative part of your personality is drowning out all other parts. Those parts are still there, they are still as much a part of you as they always were, but you just can't hear them.
You are not helpless, you are not broken.
When was the last time you can remember being happy? Think back, it may have been a very long time ago, what was it you were doing?
You don't fucking know me. If I'm telling you that is the reality, is because it fucking is. I haven't been happy since I stopped being a child. Big fucking deal, I'm still here. And I won't kill myself. The world can suck my dick if they don't want me.
What happened when you stopped being a child?
Dude give up and fuck off.
Nothing will change and I don't want your "help" you're not helping anyone.
Fair enough. Enjoy your life.
I won't.
How old is old as fuck? Success and charm is part of the equation to expand the possible pool, yes, but why not do anything about that? If you like your job, then you should have some confidence in what you do, that eliminates the need for a big salary, to a certain degree.
Your character should never be set in stone. If you are at that point, then it's time to roll up your sleeves and learn a new skill, pick up a different hobby or do something other than your daily routine. Recently I've started reading books and listening to podcasts about a whole bunch of different things because I was tired of being stuck. You might toss away some ideas and others will excite you and keep you progressing.
If you have the opportunity to go to a gym or get any other form of exercise, please allow yourself to do it. Your mental and physical health are one and united. It's hard to eat real, unprocessed food on a budget, but maybe you can afford a meal each weekend that you take your time to prepare and really enjoy both making and eating?
Friendship is a real important factor to everyone, and I'm sorry you lack close friends. Friendship is more important than courtship. If you can shift focus to finding new, close friends that might open up a new mindset and other options down the road.
Dude I'm unemployed and I despised my job. I'm not going to go to a fucking gym ever again, especially now.
People may not be as shallow as you think they are.
I don't think they're shallow for wishing that. If I didn't had memories of my current life I would switch my personality to that, ignorance is a bliss.
I meant for thinking the only thing a partner would find attractive is money, youth, or social status. A lot of people just want someone to sit on the couch and watch a movie with them or tag along to chat while walking a dog.
That's not true in my world
You live in the same world as us, it's as much true where you live as it is where we live.
Humans, fundamentally, want companionship.
How old are you roughly?
Mid 30s
Mid 30s isn't "old as fuck".
That being said, not everyone is destined to be in a relationship. Some people are just socially awkward or annoying to be around and don't have either the guidance or desire to change.
Some people don't even realize that they are annoying or off-putting to others, and so they can't understand why no one will be their friend or get into a relationship with them. Sometimes they tend to blame other people as the problem instead of themselves.