“Honesty”? Well maybe that’s step one: understand why those arguments you’ve been fed are disingenuous and not valid.

Those countries are, by and large, much happier than us in North America. They don’t experience nearly the levels of mass poverty that countries focused on money over citizens do, and if it weren’t for the death throes of capitalism injecting intense amounts of rightwing propoganda into the world right now they’d be even better off. Nearly half of America is below the official poverty line and many of the rest don’t realize how bad they have it because that line doesn’t move as quickly as it should.

They have safety nets for people in a bund and support structures for everyone. In the U.S. people need to refuse ambulances because they cost too much. Police kill people at an insane rate here, even in Canada, and while they are far from perfect in Europe they are at least not killing their citizens in the fucking street and in their homes. They have more green initiatives and they work together, using the EU, to push for real and important changes that capitalism does nothing to address. As the rightwing gets more and more extreme we do see more and more issues, of course, as the whole MO of those governments is to break down the government’s ability to function such that it can replaced by private business(although they’re also enjoying using the power to restrict the freedoms of minority groups such as the immigrants you mentioned).

Yes, it is not perfect, but if we’re arguing about that vs capitalism it’s a no-contest. Capitalism doesn’t even pretend to care about people, only keeping money, and therefore power, in the hands of those who least deserve it. That’s the whole game, and it’s awful for everyone.

Oh, and Venezuela? Yea, the CIA, in order to push the U.S.’s fucked up capitalist garbage, is constantly meddling in South America’s business. To “protect American interests” they’ve funded literal death squads for crying out loud.

If you want to talk about anarchy or adjacent options, those will just devolve into a completely unregulated disaster. There’s a reason we have government and arachists are just too fucking lazy to build something that works so they just want to destroy things that aren’t 100% perfect.

Norway. Finland. Iceland. Sweden. Portugal. Spain. France. Germany. etc.

Not who you replied to, but there is a massive misconception here that must be addressed.

Socialist governments shift power from unaccountable, anti-democratic Capitalists to a more democratically accountable state. This is not an "easier access to corruption," but a removal of that which corruption was assumed as a given. Additionally, by rejecting the profit motive, you remove lobbying and other methods by which the wealthy shape and shift the state, corruption itself is minimized.

Your assumption that Capitalists are somehow not corrupt when exploitation is a requirement for there to be a Capitalist is the key issue here.

Thanks for the formatting, helps me a lot. I'll do my best to have the discussion you want.

• If it's your opinion it's your opinion. I don't think that 'wanting more power over more things' is something inherent to socialism. All governments take power over things when they think it's necessary. A particularly controversial example would be abortion restrictions. That is an extreme intrusion by a government into the literal organs of its citizens but to a religious capitalist it makes sense. Need more workers and more consumers after all.

• I don't see that there's any meaningful difference between an interest free loan and a subsidy. Say the farmers don't pay up and ask for another loan, are you gonna starve on principle?

• Lots is wrong with dirt roads, they're just inefficient. So much money and resource spent on fixing and maintaining vehicle suspensions and the extra time needed to go slowly which is all unnecessary with a proper road. I love trains but they can't do everything, we're not running tracks to every home in order for the mail train to come deliver your package etc.

As for private parties, this is also just the least efficient way to do things. Roads need to be compatible with each other, have the same spacings the same areas for communal services like electricity water and gas and so on. Who's gonna enforce all that with no profit motive? It would have to be a government entity, at which point the government might as well just build the roads in the first place and charge everyone a general usage fee, but since it's a government this is called 'Road tax' and is already implemented in most European countries. This isn't even socialism it's just the basics of what governments are for: taking care of 'societal chores'.

En Venezuela siempre ha habido muchísima pobreza, que es bien distinto a decir que siempre ha sido pobre.

Venezuela ha tenido momentos de bonanza económica en los que gente todas las clases económicas ha podido prosperar. Momentos en los que ha habido cierta clase media.

Efectivamente, los altos precios del petróleo no solo permitieron a la élite chavista enriquecerse, sino también poner en marcha varios programas sociales (obviamente, demandando lealtad al proceso) y comprar lealtades en el exterior regalando petróleo. Después de la caida de los precios del petróleo y la destrucción de PDVSA, ya esto no fue posible.

Pero si lo que quieres decir es que con o sin régimen chavista Venezuela sería pobre igualmente, creo que te equivocas. La miseria ha empujado a millones de Venezolanos al exterior como no había precedentes en su historia. Y fuera de la situación económica, la represión política también es una realidad.

Venezuela estaría mejor sin el régimen. Lo de que sea de izquierdas es casi accesorio.

Los ejes de izquiera y derecha son una simplificación. Hay muchas más dimensiones en las situar un movimiento político. Hay que ir a lo concreto.