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this post was submitted on 05 May 2024
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You're allowed to be atheist of course, but do you have any more proof that there are no gods than they have that gods exist?
EDIT: Y'all can have your opinion, no one's questioning that. You're allowed to believe there are no higher powers, but I'm not allowed my personal belief that there is?? Not one person has provided proof that there is no Higher Power. Grow up....
I'm not against religion, but that's not how evidence and proof works. Do you have any proof that tiny invisible pink elephants aren't hiding in your fridge?
Proof of a negative is common in science and mathematics.
Edit: For those who are downvoting here are some sources
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burden_of_proof_(philosophy)#Proving_a_negative
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proof_of_impossibility
No, you can't prove that something never happens or that something doesn't exist. You can sometimes prove something that contradicts the existence of something, but that's not proving that the thing itself doesn't exist, because it's epistemologically not possible
Science, philosophy, and mathematics say otherwise.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burden_of_proof_(philosophy)#Proving_a_negative
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proof_of_impossibility
Then why did you dodge the request to prove there are no tiny invisible pink elephants in your fridge, wise guy? lmao
If you're claiming my fridge has no tiny invisible pink elephants you are welcome to provide evidence.
I will make no claims on the matter and thus have to provide no evidence either way.
Edit: I think you're confusing me for the other guy.
I was, but you're running defense for him so I think the point still stands.
Believing claims on the grounds that they haven't been disproven is just bad epistemology, and it certainly isn't good science. Hence the elephants.
That's not really how it works though. If I tell you there's an invisible dragon living under your bed who will burn your house down at some time in the future if you don't give me $10. You can't disprove it, but because I'm the one making the claim that the dragon exists the burden of proof is on me.
The burden of proof tennis is quite tricky here because it's not about whether you claim something exists, it's whether you claim something that goes against what's generally accepted. If I claim quantum mechanics don't exist, it's not on you to prove they do.
And that's before we get into the fact that there isn't a general consensus on whether God (or any gods) exist.
Your premise is incorrect. The burden of proof for quantum mechanics is on the people claiming they exist. They provided those proofs, which is why people believe in them. I haven't studied quantum mechanics, but if you asked somebody who does, they could offer proof or evidence. And if they couldn't, then your claim it doesn't exist (until proof was proffered) would be correct.
It was on them until society generally accepted it. Now if I claim it doesn't exist, the burden is on me.
Or how about this: if I claim dinosaurs never existed and thus the fossils didn't come from them, it's not on you to prove they did.
You're missing the point. It's not a one time thing. Evidence existed, that evidence was found, and that's what made it change to being accepted.
That evidence still exists, so if you claim dinosaurs don't exist, we can just point to the evidence that still exists. That evidence didn't get spirited away like golden plates to heaven. We're still finding dinosaur bones.
If you claim dinosaurs don't exist, I would point to the wealth of evidence that they do. If you were raised in some religious cult that never taught anything about dinosaurs and taught that the Earth was 6000 years old, and therefore didn't think giant creatures existed hundreds of millions of years ago, it would absolutely be on the person claiming they exist to show you dinosaur bones. Which is evidence.
Don't argue with idiots.
So if everyone believed in the invisible dragon under your bed, would that shift the burden of proof to you? I don't see what the general consensus has to do with anything.
The people who say quantum mechanics exists don't just claim it, they can demonstrate it through peer reviewed evidence. Quantum mechanics is also a theory based on observable facts intended to propose testable mechanisms by which those facts can be explained. My claim of a dragon under your bed has no such backing.
As smarter people than me have said, that which is asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence.
Not really though? Non-existence of anything is the default. Existence of something puts the burden of proof on whoever claims this something exists. "Quantum mechanics" is a bad example, it's a set of theories, not a single theory (like "a god exists"). Depending on what is being claimed, you can easily show people papers, such as this one which shows experimental observable proof of principles of quantum theory.
At one point, quantum mechanics didn't exist and wasn't generally accepted. Physicists like Heisenberg took upon them the burden of proof and provided it.
General acceptance is how it is treated since then, by non-physicists, but it is simply possible to follow the proof of it if you really wanted to. There are experiments that have been performed and that can be performed again that create observable evidence of the principles of quantum mechanics.
The burden of proof still lies on proponents of quantum mechanics. What you're talking about is more of a societal shortcut, accepting that the burden of proof has been verified by other people, not by yourself, as it's impossible to go deep enough into every subject to actually verify every proof you come across. That's why specialization exists.
The difference is that 99% of physicists confirm the proof of quantum mechanics. Specialists on religion are all very much divided on which god(s) or whether at all one exists, and no proof exists for any religious theories.
You should familiarize yourself with the concept called Burden of Proof. They (those who believe in God, and claim he exists and created all things, etc) are the ones where the burden lies. It is not for the rest of us to prove their beliefs for them, or you.
The default position is that we don't know if a specified thing exists. To prove or disprove it, you need evidence. I can prove that the Christian God doesn't exist, as it is logically impossible, but it's possible that some other version of a god might exist, I don't know. I don't have evidence either way.
How can you prove the Christian God doesn't exist?
It's logically impossible, it has contradictory aspects.
Yes, you said that, but what exactly?
It's impossible to prove the non-existence of something. It's on those who believe in god to prove its existence.
And the Bible doesn't count as sufficient evidence because that would be like believing Harry Potter exists because JK Rowling says so.
Unless you claim, as OP did, that you can actually disprove it.
I agree that the Bible is not sufficient in the sense that it proves anything or sews up their arguments, but to suggest its historical value as evidence is the same as modern day fiction is absurd.
For example, omnipotence is a self-contradictory term, as you have a dilemma - if a being is all powerful enough to give itself limits, it is not omnipotent as it wouldn't be able to do the things it limited itself to do. Whereas if it can't self-impose limits, it's also not omnipotent as it isn't able to self-impose limits. Another example is that suffering exists in the world, which would be a contradiction if an all-powerful being that wanted to end suffering existed, since it should, but it isn't.
And these are just contradictions within God's character. If you want to look at the things he actually claims to have done, you'll find numerous more in the Bible. Just as one example, Jesus's last words are different in almost every gospel.
None of this is new or hasn't been thought about, written about and deflated for centuries. I doubt you have any theologians shaking in their boots.
The meaning of omnipotence as it translates to Good has always been nuanced. There have always been things God can't do - sin being the obvious example. You could debate whether he can, but just never would because of his character, but it amounts to the same thing and has been orthodoxy for centuries.
The apparent contradictions on the Gospels (especially synoptic) have been done to death. Debated and answered more times than you've had hot dinners. There is no serious theologian or biblical scholar who would hear that argument and be at all concerned by it.
Honestly the same applies to the idea of a good god and suffering.
Just because people think they've put forward an excuse doesn't mean it's a good excuse. None I've heard have convinced me yet.
And that's fair enough. Claiming you can definitively disprove the existence of the Christian God and having some objections that you haven't heard a convincing response to aren't the same thing though...
Careful, many online atheists don't understand that they have to prove a negative. That they have to prove the assertion: "There is no god."
The default position is that there is yet insufficient evidence to draw a conclusion.
Edit: Thank you for the downvotes, you have provided me with further evidence that online atheists don't understand that they have to prove a negative. Your butthurt fuels me.
This guy eats babies
prove me wrong
You have made the assertion, thus you have the burden of proof.
"what can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence" QED
...Do you not realize that the same goes for god?
I wasn't arguing for the existence of god.
Let me break this down:
The second one is wrong, there is no god is not a claim that requires evidence in the same way there are no fairies in my fridge doesn't require evidence
Negative claims require evidence.
Otherwise a safety engineer can go to a regulator and say "There are no structural issues with this building." He is claiming there are no issues, he needs to back that up with evidence.
Your Jedi mind tricks won't work on me. 😜
That's making a positive claim about a negative outcome. "There is enough evidence to be confident there aren't structural problems" is what they're really saying.
This doesn't work for god because there's nothing to check, there's never been any evidence for god, but there's been plenty of evidence for structural issues existing.
Bro, the graphite is not there. Everything is completely normal.
Let’s start with clarifying an element of the question:
Which characteristics define a god? Do these characteristics violate the laws of physics and/or internal logic? If these characteristics do not violate the laws of physics, then what aspects distinguish a god from a mundane or natural entity?
"A fire-breathing dragon lives in my garage"
Because that's not the atheist position. You're wrestling with a claim nobody is making.
Atheism doesn't claim there is no "Higher Power", it's just a disbelief in theistic claims.