565
France votes to ban ‘forever chemicals,’ exempting frying pans
(www.politico.eu)
you are viewing a single comment's thread
view the rest of the comments
view the rest of the comments
this post was submitted on 04 Apr 2024
565 points (100.0% liked)
World News
39046 readers
2200 users here now
A community for discussing events around the World
Rules:
-
Rule 1: posts have the following requirements:
- Post news articles only
- Video links are NOT articles and will be removed.
- Title must match the article headline
- Not United States Internal News
- Recent (Past 30 Days)
- Screenshots/links to other social media sites (Twitter/X/Facebook/Youtube/reddit, etc.) are explicitly forbidden, as are link shorteners.
-
Rule 2: Do not copy the entire article into your post. The key points in 1-2 paragraphs is allowed (even encouraged!), but large segments of articles posted in the body will result in the post being removed. If you have to stop and think "Is this fair use?", it probably isn't. Archive links, especially the ones created on link submission, are absolutely allowed but those that avoid paywalls are not.
-
Rule 3: Opinions articles, or Articles based on misinformation/propaganda may be removed. Sources that have a Low or Very Low factual reporting rating or MBFC Credibility Rating may be removed.
-
Rule 4: Posts or comments that are homophobic, transphobic, racist, sexist, anti-religious, or ableist will be removed. “Ironic” prejudice is just prejudiced.
-
Posts and comments must abide by the lemmy.world terms of service UPDATED AS OF 10/19
-
Rule 5: Keep it civil. It's OK to say the subject of an article is behaving like a (pejorative, pejorative). It's NOT OK to say another USER is (pejorative). Strong language is fine, just not directed at other members. Engage in good-faith and with respect! This includes accusing another user of being a bot or paid actor. Trolling is uncivil and is grounds for removal and/or a community ban.
Similarly, if you see posts along these lines, do not engage. Report them, block them, and live a happier life than they do. We see too many slapfights that boil down to "Mom! He's bugging me!" and "I'm not touching you!" Going forward, slapfights will result in removed comments and temp bans to cool off.
-
Rule 6: Memes, spam, other low effort posting, reposts, misinformation, advocating violence, off-topic, trolling, offensive, regarding the moderators or meta in content may be removed at any time.
-
Rule 7: We didn't USED to need a rule about how many posts one could make in a day, then someone posted NINETEEN articles in a single day. Not comments, FULL ARTICLES. If you're posting more than say, 10 or so, consider going outside and touching grass. We reserve the right to limit over-posting so a single user does not dominate the front page.
We ask that the users report any comment or post that violate the rules, to use critical thinking when reading, posting or commenting. Users that post off-topic spam, advocate violence, have multiple comments or posts removed, weaponize reports or violate the code of conduct will be banned.
All posts and comments will be reviewed on a case-by-case basis. This means that some content that violates the rules may be allowed, while other content that does not violate the rules may be removed. The moderators retain the right to remove any content and ban users.
Lemmy World Partners
News !news@lemmy.world
Politics !politics@lemmy.world
World Politics !globalpolitics@lemmy.world
Recommendations
For Firefox users, there is media bias / propaganda / fact check plugin.
https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/media-bias-fact-check/
- Consider including the article’s mediabiasfactcheck.com/ link
founded 1 year ago
MODERATORS
Sounds great, let's ban it in every form except the one we literally eat...
Actually it's in a lot of food wrappers.
And those aren't as durable as cooking utensils. If you don't scratch your pan with a metal fork and don't use it for two decades, it's apparently somewhat safe. Not according to the companies, I'm not shilling, Last Week Tonight had a point about it on their episode about PFA's.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9W74aeuqsiU
I'd personally love to not consume any fucking PFAS, but I also understand that this French thing is still a massive step forwards for regulations on the matter.
Tldr it's still a win
That stuff sticks to (aka reacts with) literally nothing. That's the point of it. The whole innovation of nonstick cookware was the fact they got it to stick to something. It’s not even dangerous if you ingest it, it doesn’t react with anything so it just comes back out.
What IS dangerous is the by products and intermediate products, as well as the stuff that comes off if you overheat it. (And also, like you said, when they get old)
This whole movement against non-stick is alright, but so many people do it for the wrong reasons. If you have nonstick, just use it and don’t buy nonstick next time. Throwing away perfectly fine cookware like that is like boycotting charmin by flushing down all your remaining rolls in one go and going to the store to buy new toilet paper from another brand.
Eh... does it?
https://www.businessinsider.com/chart-how-long-hazardous-forever-chemicals-pfas-stay-in-blood-2023-3
I still use my non-sticks, but like you said, I'm gonna buy non-PFAS cookware the next time I need to. I'm in no panic about my pans. What people probably should pay more attention to is PFAS in clothing. This might be a tad sensationalist as The Guardian often is, but eh, with a grain of salt: https://www.theguardian.com/fashion/2023/jul/02/fashion-chemicals-pfas-bpa-toxic
Yes, the final product comes back out. The final product is PTFE, not PFAS. PTFE is harmless unless degraded or overheated (which is why you shouldn’t do that with non-stick cookware).
To produce PTFE, PFAS are used (or are intermediaries in the process), which is why the production is dangerous, but the product isn’t.
#Some of the PFAS that have been studied — PFOA, PFOS, and PFHS — can take over seven years to reduce by half in your bloodstream. It's no wonder they're called "forever chemicals."
There’s no PTFE in that list.
So?
We're not talking excretion, we're talking blood half-life.
Too complex a distinction for a corporate shill?
Hey, it’s me, your friendly neighbourhood corporate shill, telling you to not buy any more nonstick cookware because I love Tefal so much. More for me!
But seriously, I’m not disputing that the chemicals you listed are bad, just that the coating itself doesn’t affect you.
PFAS bad, but only there during production. PTFE fine, and that’s what’s on your pan. PTFE does not get into your blood. Any PTFE you consume comes back out, because it is not PFAS.
TL;DR: use pan until pan bad, then buy pan with no PTFE.
Do you understand the difference between excretion and half-life?
Do you understand that anything that has a half-life of SEVERAL YEARS in the blood and is fairly novel and hasn't been studied for long term effects of exposure on humans, should be something which you avoid having in your blood?
It's like when tobacco companies put asbestos in cigarettes to "filter" them.
https://www.asbestos.com/products/cigarette-filters/
But yeah, tldr I can agree with
You haven’t shown the half-life of PTFE lol
PFAS is a group of substances, not a substance.
PTFE is Teflon. Weird how someone would shill for DuPont, right?
https://theintercept.com/2015/08/11/dupont-chemistry-deception/
People like you fucking disgust me. Either you're willfully ignorant or maliciously so. Both are equally pathetic.
Wait up, I just checked and you’re technically right - PTFE is definitely a PFAS. Dunno if it’s dangerous or frequently breaks down into dangerous PFAS, but FWIW I’ve long suspected that nonstick pans can’t be good for you. I’ve never seen a nonstick pan that doesn’t have a single scratch in anyone’s kitchen before.
You could probably stand to improve the clarity of your arguments though haha
Not gonna get very far talking to people like that. Lucky for you I empathize with your intentions,
I hate to step in here, because I fear you're not interested in a discussion, but chemistry is very sensitive to small changes. You can't just notice that two chemicals are related or similar and assume they behave similarly in all situations. It literally takes a degree in chemistry to look at a molecule and start making guesses about its properties.
Then we throw in the fact that we're interested in how these chemicals behave inside your body and it becomes a whole other level of complex. Guessing is practically out the window, as far as I'm concerned, unless you've got some key functional group that stays consistent and exposed whose interactions you already understand. Your body has so many different chemical systems you just plain can't assume similar chemicals will have similar behavior.
Here is an alternative Piped link(s):
https://www.piped.video/watch?v=9W74aeuqsiU
Piped is a privacy-respecting open-source alternative frontend to YouTube.
I'm open-source; check me out at GitHub.
Careful what you wish for. PTFE is used in liners of a lot of life saving catheters. The stuff that goes I side your heart and brain and saves your life...
I have PTFE and PVDF in my body and I am happy about that.
I'm guessing a DES (stent)?
Yes this and a hernia mesh. Guess there will come more.
Its about finding alternatives. Right now there is an immense economic & lobby pressure to not pursue finding alliterative materials.
PTFE is super cheap to produce & is sold with high margins. Financially would be basically impossible to fund research for alternative material, produce it without economies of scale, compete in a saturated market, etc.
Cases like this is exactly why we need representatives of the people to act & pass laws.
Its like with plastic (one use?) products, the mantra was "nothing can be as good as plastic" and it took the market no time to produce better products without plastic. But there is a lot of push back, eg there is absolutely no need for paper straws to get soggy (we have the tech) yet you mostly see only the shitty kind.
Or the example of paper industry, they had the interest to ditch plastic and they did to an extend. Those little transparent windows in envelopes are super cheap cellulose, but a decade ago they were plastic.
I presume it's mostly used in the handles. I don't think we cook on plastic.
It's on the non stick coating for a lot of pans and can easily flake off and be ingested if you damage it by using metal utensils. This is why you should never use metal on nonstick.
I have family that makes me rip my hair out over this shit.
They put their non-stick in the oven, They use metal tools on it, and they refuse to replace it when the coating fails and starts coming off.
They denigrate me as some kine of hoity-toity rich man with my "pointless" pain replacements, when they arent getting angry at me for "looking down" on them by saying that their pans unsafe.
Just buy a cast iron or a steel pan for fucks sake!
What’s wrong with using it in the oven?
The teflon coating starts to breakdown at higher temperatures. The pan or box they came in has to state not safe for oven use. Also preheating on the burner can cause it. Food in the pan mostly prevents it from reaching that temperature.
Most Teflon pans used to have plastic handles that dummy proofs them from the oven.
I used to work in food service - I remember one day they replaced all the pans with new ones that had a black Teflon coating... about 6 months later, ALL of the black, except a little bit around the edge, was completely gone. Just bare metal. All of it flaked off into our customers' food.
Were you scraping them with steel wool or something
In a commercial kitchen? I'd bet good money they were using metal utensils.
Teflon isn't heat-resistant enough to withstand proper frying temperatures for long and actual chefs are going to do an actual sear. If you want non-stick there's carbon steel or cast iron (as well as proper technique), if you want stick-and-deglaze (yes that's a thing) use stainless steel. All three are going to out-live your great-grandchildren.
If you want something acid-resistant use a ceramic or stainless pan: Stuff like tomato sauce is going to strip patina off cast iron or carbon steel. Sure, you can just re-do the patina but it's going to take some cycles before it's up to its old non-stick properties again. Those non-stick ceramic pans are basically fancy enamel, when they lose their non-stick properties clean them with oxygen bleach that's going to strip fatty residues out of the tiny dimples in the coating and they'll be as good as new. Only way to really damage them is to shatter the coating.
That makes a lot of sense.
A bit odd that a commercial kitchen would buy teflon though considering how fragile it is.
I guess incompetent management is incompetent.
You don’t think some probably came off in the dishwasher?
Even so it still goes into the environment forever, per the name.
To be fair: it is mostly inert. But using carbon steel instead has virtually 0 cost and a much longer lifespan(that yourself)
Yes, I never understood the problem with carbon steel cookware. Like, we achieved peak ease of overall use. I want tools like that to be always there, stay the same, and that I don't have to ever even think about replacing it. Also its appropriate to cook anything in it.
I've never done it or had the need but at most what you can do is polish the cooking surface of it somehow became scratched/rough & food gets caught in those spots. But seriously, scratching steel (in the amount that doesn't immediately go away with normal use) is kinda hard and an achievement.
I think part of the overall problem is that people start cooking in cold steel cookware?
That's where you're wrong, bucko
Its the non-stick in the non-stick pan.
I hate this keyboard. You have no idea how much.
Nonstick pans, though most of the harm is from manufacture, not end-use
Yeah, huge amount of harm to the people around the manufacturing plants.
And some amount of eating extremely inert molecules to the people buying them.
Two separate things, the first worse than the second, but still.
Its used as the nonstick coating
PTFE, aka Teflon.
Meh. It's not that dangerous if you use a non-stick pan of good quality. And toss it in the bin as soon as the non-stick surface starts to show signs of scraping...
If you want to avoid this problem altogether you can just buy cast iron or enameled pans. But enamel is a lot stickier (and heavier) than teflon
The problem is that non-stick has been marketed heavily to the point that the majority of cheap pans are non-stick, even though there's many purposes they're not suitable for. For example they shouldn't be used for high heat cooking, but how many people don't know that? And they're extremely toxic if the surface is chipped. Using the wrong utensils on the can chip them. Plus, there's a number of pans out there that make it look like they're a different material, but actually it's just the same thing rebranded. So even if people are using them wrong, it's very understandable why someone who's a casual cook wouldn't realize that they're endangering themselves by using the pans wrong.
Yeah believe me I know all about that. My dad is a materials scientist and has been rambling about us eating Teflon for a few decades now. Using metal utensils with the non stick pans is one of the few ways to truly get yelled at in my parents' house
Adding carbon steel to this, because I love my pan, and my mother-in-law (who lives to cook) can use it without arthritis pain. She always used to complain about the cast iron hurting her joints when she lifted our other pans.
What I'm also curious about is the ceramic coated pans. I've seen them advertised (I think Green Pan, whatever). I would like a lighter alternative to Le Crouset that I could cook acidic foods in.
Yeah, I was also in no panic but
So now I have good stainless and cast iron for about the same price but it could potentially last the rest of my life: reducing toxic chemicals from manufacturing, reducing the amount of forever chemicals accumulating in my body, and saving me money. Even better, by paying attention to the quirks of effective use of these pans, I’ve become a better cook and find the cleanup usually no worse than non-stick