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this post was submitted on 27 Dec 2023
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You’ve made an excellent point, just not the one you think
You’re playing chess with pigeons, I wouldn’t bother
That those kids got the guns illegally and would have done so regardless of what laws were in place? That point?
Ah yes, the "If it's not going to stop 100% of the problem, let's not do it at all" bullshit.
That old chestnut.
If random check stops don't stop 100% of drunk drivers, why do them at all. Your just punishing the drivers who AREN'T driving drunk!
If seatbelts don't save 100% of lives, why regulate that we wear them. Muh Freedums!!
It bullshit excuses made by people with literally nothing of any real sense to fall back on.
Not on that guy's side, but he didn't strictly say that we shouldn't have those laws.
He said that if you're siteing a case where we did have those laws and a bad thing happened as an example for why we need laws like that in place to stop the bad thing from happening, it falls a little flat.
Not that the idea of having laws like that is bad, but citing individual cases is flawed, as no amount of regulatory structure will ever prevent 100% of cases.
To frame it a different way, I could argue that there's literally no country on earth with strong enough gun laws, because there's no country with zero gun deaths. I could argue that we need random searches of people homes to try and find guns, or imprisoning people who talk about guns, because the current laws clearly aren't good enough because people are still getting shot. Doesn't matter if it was only 1 incident in the past 30yrs. Still happened, so we need stricter laws.
That's obviously an absurd level of hyperbole, and I want to reiterate that I'm all for regulation on firearms. Just wanted to point out that the core argument here is unideal.
Well, in MY state random stops ARE illegal. Thanks Oregon! Frankly, I'm surprised more states haven't done that.
https://romanolawpc.com/oregon-dui-checkpoints/
There are things that CAN be done, you just have to start with rejecting the idea of "hurrr durrr take all the guns" because that can't be done due to the 2nd amendment.
In THIS case, we know the two kids already had priors for car burglaries.
So #1) You find out who legally owned those guns, then you charge them with improper storage and/or failure to report a stolen weapon.
#2) When kids are arrested for a crime like burglary, you search their homes to make sure weapons weren't anything that were burgled.
“The solution to ensuring our freedom to own guns is to restrict all our other freedoms. “
Wow you're a moron
Oh come on, regardless of where you stand on the issue, you can't think of any change in law could contain that would prevent someone from getting a gun?
FTA:
"Both teens have prior arrests for car burglaries."
Seems likely they stole the guns from cars, so maybe make it illegal to keep your gun in your car?
Hard to say until the gun origins are traced back, but they weren't legally purchased by or for the kids.
Hmm, so the source of the guns were the cars that were broken into. Hmm, yes. So what law can you imagine that would have even prevented the option for those gun owners to keep guns in their cars? C'mon, you've got this. Hint: How did the car owners get the guns?
Nothing that could be blocked because of the 2nd amendment. You can't prevent people from legally owning guns.
Now, if you want to get rid of the 2nd amendment, we have a process for that...
First you get 290 votes in the House, then you get 67 votes in the Senate, then you get ratification from 38 states, so all 25 Biden states +13 Trump states.
Good luck with that!
The constitution was written by a bunch of geriatric slave owners who barely washed once a week. Every single one of the signatures on that paper comes from someone that would be considered mentally deficient in this day and age.
You shouldn't be proud of it standing in the way of sane legislation, nor the fact that gross gerrymandering keeps it that way.
Regardless of how you FEEL about the 2nd amendment, it is the law of the land and it's not going anywhere until we can get 290 votes in the House... you know, the legal body that took 15 tries to get the simple majority of 218 to decide who their own leader was.
But hey, we got 311 to bounce out George Santos, so it IS possible to get that level of agreement, it just won't happen on guns.
“Regardless of the geriatrics who wrote the constitution, it will never change due to the geriatrics who are now in power”
While your comment is entirely true, it represents a seriously flaw in the way that our country determines what is best for its people
Oh, there's no doubt about that, but it's what we have to live with.
Jefferson advocated for throwing everything out and starting over every 19 years, that would have been interesting.
https://oll.libertyfund.org/quote/thomas-jefferson-on-whether-the-american-constitution-is-binding-on-those-who-were-not-born-at-the-time-it-was-signed-and-agreed-to-1789
"Every constitution, then, and every law, naturally expires at the end of 19 years. If it be enforced longer, it is an act of force and not of right."
So, two years before the Bill of Rights. If Jefferson had his way, the 2nd Amendment (and everything else) would have expired in 1810 and would have had to be renewed then and another 11 times since then.
But Jefferson didn't get his way and here we are!
Very true. Sorry you got downvoted for getting to your real point, but I’m in agreement, that when those that wrote the constitution came up with it, and subsequently additions were added the bill of rights, and what was those who fought for the next amendments, it was the most progressive thing at the time. But as our world has changed, so should our values and therefore our constitution, and every modification and addition. Empires come and go when they think they are infallible, the US is no different, and we should be willing to throw out what some consider “holy texts” when it makes sense to build a better nation.
Realistically, the actual wording of 2nd amendment is actually rather specific. But that leads to a whole different ugly ass problem - what to do about the corrupt SC?
Ugh
Ah, so the gun was purchased legally by one of those trustworthy, responsible members of the well-regulated militia. Nothing to see here, then.
"Well regulated militia" didn't mean the same thing back then.
Well regulated = well armed and equipped.
Militia = general public who could be called up at a moments notice for public defense.
See:
https://supreme.justia.com/cases/federal/us/554/570/
"The prefatory clause comports with the Court’s interpretation of the operative clause. The “militia” comprised all males physically capable of acting in concert for the common defense."
So:
"A well armed and equipped public, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."
Your comment has been reported, but as you had links and appeared to be arguing in good-faith, I decided to leave it. With that said, I completely disagree with your words.
Review Article 1, Section 8, Clauses 15-16.
Militia was what we now call "National Guard". Speaking from experience, as a former guardsman as well as vet in 2 other branches. Back when I went to basic, this was well discussed as a given. I'm surprised people think otherwise to this day.
Unfortunately, it's the Supreme Court who defines such things and, as cited in D.C. vs. Miller above, they very clearly set the definition as noted.
Since that ruling, they have further clarified it in McDonald vs. City of Chicago (necessary because Heller involved Washington D.C., which isn't a state).
https://supreme.justia.com/cases/federal/us/561/742/
Generally when I point out these inconvenient facts the response is "well, who cares what the Supreme Court says! Get the court to reverse it!"
Which, sure, can be done, we saw that with Roe vs. Wade, all it took was 50 years and the appointment of one conservative judge after another.
In theory we could flip the court, Thomas and Alito are the two oldest members of the court and highly conservative, so electing a Democratic President in '24 and again in '28 would virtually assure flipping the court.
Then the problem becomes keeping it, because the next three oldest are Roberts, Sotomayor and Kagan.
I wasn't arguing with you about what they say NOW. I was pointing you to what they literally said THEN.
You said "a well regulated militia didn't mean the same thing back then"
I merely pointed you to the founders own words to show you that you were wrong.
It wasn't an amendment. It was baked into the first article.
You pointing out the RECENT supreme court ruling was a bad faith argument against my rebuttal.
Yes, I'm pointing out that the Supreme Court now has defined what the founders meant then. :) They are the arbiters of what the founders meant after all.
There's a TON of history they go through in Heller, and McDonald and the recent ruling from New York, Bruen.
All worth reading if you have the time.
https://supreme.justia.com/cases/federal/us/597/20-843/
Bruen is the one with most of their historical reasoning because it's the one that requires a historical precedent for gun laws, which is a new twist.
They aren't arbiters of what the founders meant. They're arbiters of how we currently interpret the constitution. Originalism is only one possible way to interpret it.
What if I told you it's much easier to use and illegal gun when they are readily available?
Only country where this happens regularly to not have figured anything out. Stop embarrassing yourself and just post thoughts and prayers
The solution is to examine how these guns got out of the legal system and into the illegal system.
The 2nd Amendment isn't going anywhere so you can take that pipedream off the table barring 290 votes in the House, 67 votes in the Senate, and ratification from 38 states.
So what CAN we do?
Well...
#1) Hold gun owners accountable for storing a gun in something like a car that can be easily be broken into or stolen.
#2) When kids are arrested for something like burglary, you search their homes for weapons.
So to start with: universal registration and ID/licensing for gun ownership, and strict liability on registered owners for crimes committed by their guns.
I'm in, sounds great.
2nd Amendment. Can't be done. "Shall not be infringed."
Add to that the most recent ruling from the Supreme Court:
https://supreme.justia.com/cases/federal/us/597/20-843/
"the government must affirmatively prove that its firearms regulation is part of the historical tradition that delimits the outer bounds of the right to keep and bear arms."
This is a new twist from the Supremes. Gun laws must prove that they are in keeping with "historical tradition". So, banning felons from owning guns is allowed, there's an historical tradition for that.
So if there's no historical basis, it won't pass muster at the Supremes.
Youre saying something called an amendment can't be changed?
You might need a thesaurus buddy.
Sure, it can be changed... here's the process:
First you get 290 votes in the House, the body that needed 15 tries to get a simple 218 vote majority to decide who their own leader was.
THEN you need 67 votes in the Senate, the body that can't muster 60 votes to over-ride filibuster after filibuster.
If by some miracle, you get those votes, then you need ratification by 38 states, from a country that broke 25 states for Biden and 25 states for Trump in the last election.
Here's the map, find 13 red states that will vote to give up their guns. Keep in mind, of the 25 Biden states, only 19 of them have Democratic statehouses, so you'll likely lose six of them as well and for every blue state you lose, you need 1 more red state.
https://www.270towin.com/maps/2020-actual-electoral-map
So, yes, given the current state of American politics, the Amendment will never change. Same as if, say, you wanted an Amendment protecting abortion, or establishing the size and term limits of the Supreme Court.
Oh so we went from "cannot be infringed" to "supreme court rulings" to "the politics wouldn't work out".
Keep skating buddy youre almost gone full circle
The status quo is "cannot be infringed".
The Supreme Court rulings have codified it.
https://supreme.justia.com/cases/federal/us/554/570/
https://supreme.justia.com/cases/federal/us/561/742/
https://supreme.justia.com/cases/federal/us/577/411/
https://supreme.justia.com/cases/federal/us/597/20-843/
Changing "cannot be infringed" is not politically possible.
All three of those are true statements.
Meh, the modern interpretation came from corrupt justices legislating from the bench, building completely ahistoric interpretations to suit modern sensibilities. This whole absolute 2A thing is entirely modern with no sincere history backing it up. The solution is court reform which is needed for a host of other reasons anyway.
But also, just to point out, YOU are arguing against YOUR OWN solutions. Which is absolute proof of how intractable the situation is right now. And the situation has become intractable because of people like you.
You're the problem.
You think you can just say "2a" and that shuts every argument down, it's so cringe
you know those minors, always committing major felonies no matter whatcha try to do.
FTA:
"Both teens have prior arrests for car burglaries."
So, yeah, apparently so... probably where they got the guns.
Guess what, if those kids were breaking into cars in London, there's 0 chance they would've acquired guns that way (not to mention, it's irresponsible to store a gun in a car to begin with).
England doesn't have a 2nd Amendment, but yeah, kids killing kids seems pretty universal:
https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/crimeandjustice/articles/homicideinenglandandwales/march2022
US per capita homicide rate is 6.4. UK is 1.2
HMMM.
Yeah, if only there weren't so many millions of guns in this country that literally any pubescent dumbshit and his brother can get one illegally without any effort! But yeah no the system is flawless and the problem unfixable cool yeah I agree.
Trying to regulate the weapons used in our hellscape dystopia is just a method of maintaining the hellscape and avoiding any real change to society at large.
So which changes would you suggest to help solve this problem?