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Steve Balmer quotes
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this post was submitted on 29 Nov 2023
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I know, isn't it great?
Like capitalism isn't also horrible?
It's also the worst. It was the backbone of both Nazi Germany, and modern Social Democracies. Capitalism is incredibly broad, both the most evil and most benign states in history have relied on Capitalism.
Socialism similarly is broad, and isn't at all synonymous with Stalinism or Maoism.
It's almost as if authoritarian/~~liberal~~libertarian and capitalism/socialism are orthogonal directions on the political compass
To be fair, the political compass is a vast oversimplification itself. For example, there cannot be an Anarchist Capitalism in any fashion, as Capitalism definitionally has a requirement for hierarchy to exist.
It's better to understand values and positions than try to place people on an imaginary grid.
Libertarian*, but yeah.
You know that communism isn't the same thing as stalinism at all right?
You've obviously never read anything about communism or socialism.
If you're going to debate a topic - and especially if you're going to make such a bold claim - you have a duty to learn and understand the topic you are debating.
You've neglected that duty.
Derail the conversation... OK, now I know you're just parroting what others have told you all your life.
Communism and socialism are primarily social orders, not economic ones. Yes, there must be an economic order in place, but as a derivative of the social order, to serve the social order and make it better, to grow and mature. That is not the case with democracy and capitalism.
But where are the good outcomes of communism? I agree that communism is terrible does not make much sense as a general statement.
There are a lot of benefits to it, like no real central leadership (more like central steering, not really iron fisted dictators which is what most implementations of it turned out to be), abolishing the monetary system (if implemented all the way), communes decide for themselves, good free healthcare, people are at the center of the system, not money/profit, etc.
If you abolish the monetary system, how do people acquire goods and services and get compensated for their labor?
Abolishing money is a very gradual process, not an immediate one. In lower stages, Labor Vouchers would be paid, and these represent an hour of labor. The difference is that labor Vouchers are destroyed upon first use.
Secondly, difficult, unpleasant, or otherwise undesirable labor would either be paid at a higher ratio, or require less labor per week to make the same amount of labor Vouchers. Alternatively, these dirty jobs may require rotation, so nobody is stuck working them. There are many ways of handling this, with more proposals than you would expect.
So labor vouchers are money that give special treatment to people who do undesirable tasks? Or are they forced upon people at random, like a temporary forced labor lottery?
Neither. It's a replacement for money, based on hours worked. The difference between money and LVs are that LVs are destroyed upon first use, ie you create 4 hours of Value, then trade that for 4 different hours of Value.
That requires a different mindset and (maybe) a different level of eveolution. Food is free, you take what you need. Services are free, if your house needs something fixed, you call the adequate people, they do the job, that's it. Same for healthcare, you just go to the doctor, no bill, you just leave (we used to have that around here). Tech products are free, you take what you need (TV, stereo, phone, PC, etc.). You go to work and do the same as everyone else, do your job and go home.
This is a very simplified version and as I said, it requires a different mindset. We're not used to that right now, it's alien to us.
Was fine for the smurfs
Na, humans are just really good at making other living beings suffer, no matter the system. Communism is certainly not a pleasant system to imagine, however it is not inherently worse or better than others that we know.
What, genuinely, is unpleasant to imagine about a Stateless, Classless, Moneyless society? I've only ever heard people say that Communism sounds great in theory but for some reason or another can't work in practice, or support for both. I've never once heard that Communism itself is unpleasant in theory.
Yeah in theory it sounds pretty darn great
Not just great, but eventually necessary. Capitalism can't outlast automation, increasingly automated production will eventually result in mass job loss and stagnation unless directed by society as a whole. It's important to ensure this transition goes well and we learn from transitions of the past to not repeat their mistakes.
Basically we're looking at the choice between Star Trek and Mad Max.
Pretty much, though Star Trek may look wildly different. There are many "good" outcomes, but none of them will be a continuation of Capitalism.
I thought it was obvious I meant Mad Max as the current future.
Do you know what most of the Communist countries that "invariably went to shit" had in common? One of the most powerful, red fearing countries in the world fucking with them relentlessly, despite the "fact" that "they would have failed if left to their own devices"
Not everywhere, Yugoslavia is a good example of things being implemented the right way. There is always room for improvement of course, things were far from perfect... and perfect is just such a strong word, the idea is not to be perfect, to always improve it.
Yes, there was a war, but there were a lot of factors that contributed to that, including the US medling in internal affairs. In general, up until the death of Tito, everything was pretty much OK. The turmoils began after his death.
That's not the theory, though. The initial claim was that it's unpleasant to think about. Regardless of your claim that it "invariably leads to shit," that doesn't answer the initial question.
If the claim should truly have been that existing attempts at Communism are unpleasant to think about, rather than "Communism itself is unpleasant to think about," then it's just an issue with wording.
So then it's a wording issue, though it's more accurate to say that revolution itself invariably turns to shit.
Optional communalism I say, when you learn to cook, clean, or use a toilet, that's communalism, you didn't teach yourself and you didn't pay by wiping your own arse.