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Hamas official says group aims to repeat Oct. 7 onslaught many times to destroy Israel
(www.timesofisrael.com)
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this post was submitted on 02 Nov 2023
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who still thinks hamas are the good guys?
If you're coming to any international conflict, but specially to this one, from a "good guys/bad guys" framework you're absolutely not helping.
Sometimes (a lot of times, sadly) all you get in a particular issue is just assholes all the way down. Unsurprisingly, deadly military conflicts where both sides have proven at best a callous disregard for civilian casualties practically requires the asshole pile to be expansive and thorough.
The question is how you get the endless, writhing mass of assholes to stop. Which isn't looking great right now.
Who still thinks any state is the good guys? Hamas and Israel are both enemies of the people.
The only way to cut through the propagandistic lies of these groups is to point out that neither truly represents the people they say they do.
I mean, Hamas took power by killing Palestinian civilians. They don’t represent anyone and they openly say they will martyr civilians.
The Palestinian National Authority (Fatah) was the democratically elected government of Palestine before 2007. Hamas staged a coup and executed Fatah officials, which is why Gaza and the West Bank are separate entities today.
Hamas is as much a state as Al-Qaeda. They’re a terrorist group that seized power by way of murder and have openly declared they intend to use their citizens as shields and martyrs.
They’re not a state. They’re a terror cell that deserves to be eliminated. Unfortunately their own admitted tactics of using civilians as shields means that civilians will be killed.
They aren't making the IDF bomb apartment buildings, which is something they've been doing for decades, before Israel helped create Hamas.
https://theintercept.com/2018/02/19/hamas-israel-palestine-conflict/
So where is Israel's responsibility there, in sponsoring terrorists? Or do we pretend notiing happened before the last few weeks because then we can sort of pretend Israel has no culpability, you know, if we squint and try to avoid looking at the bombing of civilians?
Yes they are. By their own admission in this article.
Hamas by their own damn admission uses civilians as shields and intends to martyr them.
Your article leaves out the fact that Israel funded and supported several Islamic organizations at the time in both Gaza and the West Bank. One became a terrorist institution.
Take the whole history into account. After the six day war, Israel was in the position that they needed all the support they could get. So they supported anyone that opposed the PLO, which was sponsored by Egypt and Fatah. Because that’s who they just were attacked by.
Israel funded dozens of Islamic organizations that were opposed to Fatah, including mosques and schools. Hamas came out of one of them.
That article has such a stupid take. It takes tiny pieces of quotes from a couple of ex-Israeli officials and with one of them is clearly omitting context. Did Israel permit Islamist groups to do stuff like build mosques and have charities? Yes. Did he also say, but it is not mentioned in the article, that they were completely peaceful at the time and that Israel didn't want to be viewed as attacking Islam? Also yes.
See, what you are saying is that Israel created Hamas by not using more oppression to stop these groups at a time when they were not attacking Israel, but the PLO was. And that is just such a simple naive take that it is ridiculous. Yeah if Israel could redo things, they might have decided that was a good idea. But then again, what if it just caused more attacks from the surrounding countries after they were claimed to be "attacking Islam." Then would we also blame Israel for those attacks due to them repressing the Islamist movements?
It even does the same by using cherry picked foresight about Afghanistan. It entirely ignores the situation in Afghanistan and just implies that the US caused Al Qaeda. Things just aren't that simple. It's entirely possible that had the US and other countries not interfered in Afghanistan that the soviet union would've lasted longer and Afghanistan might've been another Chechnya.
At the time, Israel was having to fight against the PLO. They were not fighting against the religious Islamic groups. And knowing the history of the time period and the politics in the region, the very religious groups were not nearly the force that they are now. So they made choices for reasons that absolutely made sense at the time. And we have no way of knowing how things would be different if they made different choices.
We can say that places that aren't Israel still have issues with the Muslim brotherhood or are friendly with them all over the middle east. And Israel certainly didn't create the Muslim Brotherhood. And if Israel didn't exist and it was all a Palestinian state with a secular government, it isn't a stretch to say that they would be in that area too, calling for an Islamist government. As they have done in Jordan, Syria, Egypt, Iraq, and more.
This is a lie. Hamas won the vote. The EU, UN, and the Carter Center all called those elections free and fair. If anything, Hamas was an underdog given that Israel, in collaboration with Fatah, kept arresting the politicians in Hamas as they defined Hamas a terrorist organization. Fatah and Israel wanted to delay the elections, but with the encouragement of the US (GWB in particular who felt Hamas would definitely not win), they decided to keep them as they were. Stop making things up to fit your narrative. Hamas still typically wins the popular vote in polling done since then. You have a fucking computer. Just google it. It's all there in black and white.
I mean they did have conflicts with Fatah. But the biggest fights weren't until after they won the election.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Gaza_(2007)
The elections in 2006 is not when Hamas took power. Their coup in 2007 was.
Difference is, Israel isn't meant to represent palestinian people, Hamas is. And they are doing a great job of it, if their job is getting civilians killed.
Edit: Just think about the massive protests against Netanyahu earlier in the year. Do those show how in tune the Israeli government and people are? No. But the very fact they could protest mostly peacefully differentiates Israel's treatment of its population from all of its neighbours.
The... what? I have no idea what you're even trying to say.
The IDF is still dropping bombs on civilians. You can invent whatever bullshit you feel like, it doesn't make that somehow okay.
The IDF is dropping bombs on (suspected) Hamas holdouts, which are all conveniently located next to civilians.
Yeah... but they're still bombing civilians. The "human shields" thing makes no sense. Israel was bombing apartment buildings before they helped create Hamas.
https://theintercept.com/2018/02/19/hamas-israel-palestine-conflict/
100%. People here scream "genocide" and "war crimes" but have no idea what these words mean. The "friends" of Palestine here make even Reddit look normal.
Doesn't change the fact that in this conflict, the IDF are trying to get Hamas targets with their attacks. And that the Hamas are the ones that built their infrastructure next to civilians, that Hamas did kill Israeli civilians indiscriminately and that the Hamas knew full well, that by building their infrastructure next to civilians and by mindlessly raiding Israeli territory, the IDF would respond and kill palestinian civilians while doing so. Israel wants to crush Hamas. Hamas wants as many people to die as possible, so that Israel is made a pariah internationally.
Right... so it's so predictable that the IDF would bomb civilians that any provocation makes the provoker guilty of their murders?
So basically the IDF are so irredeemable in your eyes they're just a force of nature or something?
Again, you're also ignoring the fact that Israel created Hamas.
And Israel SHOULD be a pariah. The only reason they've gotten away with this genocide for so long is because they've had unconditional US state backing.
What do you think Israel should do then with Hamas? Let them get away with murdering more than 1200 Israelis? Conduct small-scale incursions at best? The fact of the matter is simply that the situation was fucked long before and the palestinian civilians were in accute danger of becoming collateral the moment the Hamas broke into Israel. If you are looking for a clearer good-guy bad-guy situation, look to the westbank. There, the Israeli settlers are clearly the ones in the wrong.
All the outrage in the world won't stop Israel from continuing to bomb Hamas in Gaza. On the other hand, Abbas and Fatah got Palestine the recognition of most UN member states. And unlike Hamas, Fatah isn't getting their civilians killed in droves.
I'm not looking for a clearer good-guy-bad-guy situation. I said in my first comment that both Hamas and Israel are enemies of the people.
I don't think either of them "should" do anything, but since "should" doesn't factor into either of their decisions, it's irrelevant anyway. They'll keep oppressing people until they are stopped by organised resistance, just like it is with any oppressive system.
Why do you say Israel and Hamas? Not Likud. Not otzma Yehudit. Just Israel. All of Israel is an enemy? But only Hamas when it comes to Palestine. What about the PLO? Are they fine? Yesh Atid? Or is it really just only Hamas but all of Israel?
Israel the state, who does not truly represent their citizens. I think the way I phrased it makes that pretty goddamn clear.
So again, the entire state of Israel? The ones elected in free and fair elections? Don't get me wrong. I am not a fan of Likud and I loathe ben Gvir and Otzma Yehudit. Just all of it. And only Hamas. The group that won what was called a free and fair election by the EU and the Carter Center and continues to be ahead in opinion polling since they have stopped elections. What are you defining as "Israel the State"?
Why is just the word "elections" enough for you? You need to explain how that makes the government actually speak for the people.
When was the last time you even felt like you had the option of voting for someone who actually represented you? When was the last time you thought the government was working on your behalf in any way? Representative democracy is a farce, it only offers us the choice of a handful of people palatable to the state, and the elected "representative" is not truly representative of the people, because that's a fundamentally flawed concept.
An election every couple of years to appoint a generalised, non-recallable ruler is just a smokescreen over the fact that we have a permanent political class that answers almost exclusively to capitalist oligarchs.
So are you arguing that both the governments of Israel and Palestine in no way represent the people they govern?
Wow, extremely wealthy country propped up by imperialism has a high happiness rating compared to extremely poor countries being stomped on by that same imperial war machine.
Surely the poor countries are the problem.
Why not? Literally just give any explanation. You didn't even try to explain in your first comment how "happiness" has anything to do with this.
I didn't blame it on Israel, I said the imperial war machine. Israel the state is also the product of capitalist imperialism, but they are the beneficiary. I made that pretty clear I think.
The poor countries on that list are all the target of structural adjustment policies, which basically say "you need to neglect your population and become indentured servants, and if you don't we will fucking glass your country." That last part about glassing them isn't in the text, but it's clearly implied by the context these policies take place in. Also the leaders are usually bribed so they will agree more readily.
And just because Israeli citizens are "happy" according to some index that you've not actually shared, just insisted does exist, has nothing to do with whether the state is on their side. They are generally extremely wealthy people living in an extremely wealthy state that is propped up by US spending. The people who live there are expats from wealthy western countries, which is a privileged sample of a privileged sample.
I'll refer you to Hank's Razor: "Anything that can be explained by socioeconomic status in a society, it's probably that rather than the thing that you're measuring."
This is almost certainly entirely socioeconomic status, directly influenced by geopolitics.
Also, Israel's genocide is not making their people safer. It is endangering them enormously. The state just can't stop genociding because it's been given a green light by the US imperial war machine, and that's just how states behave when they have that kind of power.
That's it? That's all you've got? "marxist"? Literally no argument at all.
Here is an alternative Piped link(s):
Hank's Razor: "Anything that can be explained by socioeconomic status in a society, it's probably that rather than the thing that you're measuring."
Piped is a privacy-respecting open-source alternative frontend to YouTube.
I'm open-source; check me out at GitHub.
Nobody said they were.
edit: okay crazy people on a lemmygrad site said they were. But that page that guy linked looked about as nice as a 4chan site....
Considering I've been banned from World News at even suggesting reality in regards to how militaries fight in such conflicts...
Yeah, even mods are ban happy regarding Israel/Palestine lol.
I made the mistake of commenting on this post where people clearly think that the Hamas are the good guys and have every right to do what they do. Apologies for linking to it.
Of course if you go to tankie central you get tankies. They’re also acting like Putin didn’t order the shelling and capture of Ukrainian cities and it’s all just (insert kremlin talking point here).
They are a specific niche of political mind. The kind that only thinks western nations are capable of propaganda and evil. Don’t take them as representative of smarter people.
Yeah, I shouldn’t have commented. That post ended up in my hot/all feed and I didn’t really look at the community. I was frankly quite confused as to what’s up with these people until I saw the upvoted Russian propaganda comment which cleared things up quite a bit.
I think one of my neighbors is a tankie, his car is really big.
Edit: Found this, The Useful Idiots”: How Activists Spread Marxism Across America
This is an 100 year conflict, all the good guys are dead.
Why do people feel this need to be good/bad. Everybody knows by now how complex is the middle east
Piece of shit, pouring oil onto fire while the civilians are getting slaughtered at this point on both sides. If there is hell, this one should burn.
Edit: I've never seen anyone defend Hamas, only civilian Palestinians. Just to make that clear distinction.
Antisemitic people, if I had to make a guess