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this post was submitted on 21 Mar 2023
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Fuck Cars
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@TheOne From the article:
"After two successful test phases, the city’s decision has been made: bus and tram travel will become free for Montpellier’s residents. From December 2023, none will have to pay for public transport.
"In this way, the city aims to reduce air pollution, cut emissions and support disadvantaged groups.
"The measure is part of a 150 million euro package that also includes the construction of new bicycle lanes.
Anyone have thoughts on free public transport? Would it work in your city?
https://scoop.me/montpellier-free-public-transport/
#planning #UrbanPlanning #transport #tram #trams #train #trains #ClimateCrisis #ClimatePolicy #railway #metro #cities
@ajsadauskas @TheOne I would love it in Prague. It works in Tallinn for residents and I don’t see why it wouldn’t work in more cities.
@ajsadauskas @TheOne - in #Queensland, the fare box revenue is so small, that eliminating the whole fare collection and enforcement would have a very minor effect on the budget, and could even be net positive if it lead to less driving (health, pollution, crashes, congestion) and more mobility.
The government keeps the full ongoing costs of the fare system secret, but we know for example that they spent A$371 million to add a payment by credit card option. Fare revenue in 2022: A$203m.
@tom_andraszek @TheOne Playing devil's advocate for a moment, in theory, the logic of requiring a fare is that, as patronage increases, there's more money to improve services.
So more passengers -> more fares -> more services -> more passengers -> more fares.
It's a virtuous cycle.
As opposed to cars, where more passengers -> more traffic -> worse travel times.
That being said, there are good alternatives.
Properties close to public transport services tend to have higher property prices.
A small council rates levy or property tax can capture that value, and be used to pay for the service.
Another option is the Hong Kong Metro model, where the service generates a profit as a result of property development above and around the stations.
In theory, that revenue could be used to fund a public transport service.
@ajsadauskas @TheOne - yes, but the situation needs to be evaluated as a whole from the point of view of the user and trip: car vs PT vs active transport: marginal cost, door to door speed, quality, safety, comfort, availability. By making PT free, we would be making it a bit more competitive against car here. As it is, it loses to car in most categories for most trips, in #GoldCoast: 5% to 85%.
@tom_andraszek @ajsadauskas @TheOne I’d rather increase the frequency of PT before we remove fairs.
@tom_andraszek @ajsadauskas @TheOne I might also learn to spell one day 🤷♂️
@Danwwilson @tom_andraszek @TheOne I definitely agree that improving services should be a priority over removing fares.
Better to pay for a system that's good than get a free ride on one that's awful.
@ajsadauskas @tom_andraszek @TheOne I think it would be great to have a service that is as convenient as driving. I live near a major bus route working 6km of cbd as the bus goes, but can still wait up to 15 mins for a bus.
@Danwwilson @ajsadauskas @TheOne - frequency is freedom, when it is a metro style frequency: every 3 minutes or so, but PT should not run empty most of the time either, so punctuality/reliability is super important in non-metro services: people can plan activities when they know, to the minute, when the bus will come, even if it comes once an hour, but they switch to driving if the bus gets cancelled or is late, more than let's say once a month?
@tom_andraszek @ajsadauskas @TheOne that’s helpful to understand. 🙂
@tom_andraszek @Danwwilson @ajsadauskas @TheOne there’s a long commuter bus line near me that only comes every 45 minutes, and I’ve heard it has a habit of being like 10-15 minutes EARLY and then leaving early too. Totally misses the point. Makes it completely unusable unless you waste an extra 15 minutes every day accommodating its potential early running.
@ajsadauskas @Danwwilson @TheOne - sure, but in the Queensland example I gave removing fares may cost almost nothing.
Let's say running 10 bus services per day costs $100 (driver+fuel), fares bring $20, card readers+ticket inspectors+software cost $10. Net: 100+10-20=$90. You can make it free: 100, or double services, net: 200+20-40=180, or double and free: 200.
Fares and services are weakly related. It's not this OR that.
I know of one city where fares cover operating costs: Singapore.
@tom_andraszek @ajsadauskas @TheOne to be honest I’d be happy if the govt spent as much on PT/active travel as they did on adding/maintaining roads. Now I haven’t looked at budgets to see if they do, I’m just making a big assumption that they don’t at the moment.
@Danwwilson @ajsadauskas @TheOne - the last time I looked at Queensland transport spending on new projects, the cars were getting the most of the funds...yep, look at the numbers in this misleading pie chart:
@tom_andraszek @Danwwilson @ajsadauskas @TheOne #billiondollarnews hey look, Car Money is like Dog Years
@Danwwilson @ajsadauskas @TheOne - source: https://www.publications.qld.gov.au/dataset/queensland-transport-and-roads-investment-program-qtrip-2021-22-to-2024-25/resource/31b923ca-932b-4637-80ea-d187d63b23ea
@tom_andraszek @ajsadauskas @TheOne absolutely WILD! I get roads connect cities and towns in a way that PT doesn’t, but I think we’d agree that once a road is in place, we shouldn’t need to widen it. Instead if demand gets too high, we clearly need to invest in alternative transport solutions like PT and active transport.
@Danwwilson @tom_andraszek @ajsadauskas @TheOne it hasn’t always been this way
Read the story of the Lincoln Highway from 100 years ago. Roads didn’t connect towns. You had to pop your car on the train.
@ajsadauskas @Danwwilson @TheOne - I forgot about Hong Kong, and Japan with many private rail operators: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Farebox_recovery_ratio
@ajsadauskas @Danwwilson @TheOne - the Japanese include all revenue, not just fare revenue, and they make money from real estate at/around train stations.
@tom_andraszek @Danwwilson @TheOne Renting real estate above and around train stations is a model we should look a lot more at in Australia.
It means transport-oriented developments around stations, with the rents feeding back into covering the cost of train services.
There are some great examples of this in Australia already too. Chatswood and St Leonards in Sydney; Box Hill and Melbourne Central in Melbourne spring to mind.
It certainly makes a lot more sense than having open air car parks.
@tom_andraszek @ajsadauskas @TheOne I don't think people are entirely rational economic access-seeking actors on a per-trip basis. I'm more interested in the psychological difference between pay-per-trip (transit) and pay-once-a-year (car insurance, rates - plus monthly payments if you have a lease, but you can't just not pay them if you don't drive, it's a long term commitment too).
@tom_andraszek @ajsadauskas @TheOne Free PT is one way to align payment frequency (well, remove the pay-per-trip and replace it with nothing), but another is discounted long term public transport passes, creating pre-commitment to taking public transport. And another, perhaps more politically difficult, is road fares per car trip....
@tom_andraszek @ajsadauskas @TheOne Well not perhaps, obviously more difficult. Discounted monthly passes already used to exist, and I don't see that they're technically incompatible with smart-card systems.
Monthly or yearly passes could be salary sacrified and/or a welfare benefit, resulting in many people getting effectively free PT - but seeing it differently from general free PT, as a thing of value that they paid for/were given and should take advantage of... maybe.
@tom_andraszek @ajsadauskas @TheOne but this is all just tinkering compared to competitive speed, frequency, and reach/door-to-door time.
@jroper @tom_andraszek @TheOne Definitely agree that speed, reach, and frequency should be the main priority. Especially given the very sorry state of public transport in many suburbs and towns.
@jroper @tom_andraszek @TheOne Discounted long-term passes for locals would be a great middle ground between free public transport and paying a fare for each journey.
NSW offers a fare cap, and that is certainly one way of effectively implementing long-term tickets for regular commuters.
In NSW, and I'd assume in other states too, there is a photo ID card that's available to people who don't have a driver's licence. Potentially there's an opportunity there to bundle a year of public transport with the ID?
For tourists (especially from overseas), you could offer public transport fares as part of the cost of the airfare. I know there are countries overseas — Spain comes to mind — that do something like that?
Another option would be to bundle the transport fare with your council rates or weekly rent. That would acknowledge that home owners or residents who live in close proximity to public transport still benefit from the system, even if they don't use it themselves.
@ajsadauskas @jroper @tom_andraszek @TheOne I'm 100% willing to be convinced I'm wrong on this, so please do, but:
Would every $1 that's spent on this be more effective (eventually) if channelled into frequency etc?
What's that concept of "memorisable timetable" that's not even a timetable because it's every 10 mins?
@jroper @tom_andraszek @ajsadauskas @TheOne Please let's not return to the crazy days of monthly / quarterly / yearly passes
One of the most lowkey-socialist things Gladys Berejiklian ever caused to happen (I can only guess her direct influence) was to remove the classist and cognitive burden of Sydney's fare incentives and rewards
Labor's T-Card and London's Oyster had/have none of these policy goals
Meanwhile Melbourne is cruel and lazy, charging $3.10 to go a few bus stops (2-hour minimum)
@jroper @tom_andraszek @ajsadauskas @TheOne While I'm here allow me to vent indignation at being charged by time instead of distance — thus rewarding for delay — and impacting those who can least afford it, with commutes approaching the 2-hour mark
I also wish to applaud the Gladys era of Sydney Buses for switching to a line-of-sight distance charging scheme
I am NOT defending bus-tram-train price differentials, but "as-the-crow-flies" fares won't punish you twice for using indirect bus routes
@jroper @tom_andraszek @ajsadauskas @TheOne The dying days of Cabernet Dom Perignon Perrotet were bizarre with the kinds of policies you only see when a government thinks they won't return
Such as: Pushing down the Opal weekly cap even further. It's a pure social policy objective. No other desired outcome.
The exact same thing is true when fare collection is abolished and saves as money money as it costs.
@jroper @tom_andraszek @ajsadauskas @TheOne Ironically, what Chris Minns and NSW Labor is giving us instead is:
Weekly motorway toll caps instead of lower weekly Opal caps
This is our "socialist" party in charge now. I'm grateful it's only temporary and they're putting Australia's most famous most capable most pointy-headed policy wonk, love child of The Sandman and Merlin the Mandarin, the one & only Alan Fels — in charge of solving Sydney's toll structure once and for all
If it's possible!
@jroper @tom_andraszek @ajsadauskas @TheOne I've gone off on a rant now … all I ask is for policies that:
• make roads cost money not free
• make arterials that aren't streets
• make arterials that are invisible
• rip up asphalt from "stroads"
(like Parramatta Road, Princes Hwy, Military Road and replace it with bike lanes, lines of trees, outdoor seating)
Neither major party offered all of the above but, weirdly, so weirdly, one of them had gone hard with the first three
@jroper @tom_andraszek @ajsadauskas @TheOne Also weird how the same party started a metro network, laid heaps of light rail track — on many streets with new bans on cars and buses
I just hope Chris Minns doesn't cancel any more rail projects than he promised already
I'm already quite worried that he and Donna Davis will start removing "On Demand" bus services from the Parramatta electorate
/end rant
@ckent @jroper @tom_andraszek @TheOne I agree the risk of rail infrastructure projects being cancelled right now is high.
For all the many well documented faults of the previous government, one thing it absolutely got right was the willingness to invest in rail and transport oriented development.
Let's hope Chris Minns expands on this legacy.
Unfortunately, pulling the plug on two planned metro lines in Western Sydney and putting a cap on tolls doesn't fill me with hope.
@ajsadauskas @jroper @tom_andraszek @TheOne Put a bow on that toot 🎀 that about covers it
His election night speech (like many others on those nights, an insight into the real person), gave me a little hope. I'd love to fill the apparatchik with boldness and confidence, to rebuild a state in his "image" — as in, imagination.
@ajsadauskas @jroper @tom_andraszek @TheOne whoa 🤯 have we all misused the phrase "rebuild in their image" since the first time someone threw insults about building statues, and metaphoric statues to mean "in their semblance"?
Was it originally a nice thing to say? Maybe it used to imply the person had creativity and imagination.
@jroper @ajsadauskas @TheOne - oh, people are definitely #PredictablyIrrational when making decisions - check out the 2008 book by Dan Ariely, especially the chapter about the disproportional power of free.
Yep, if you want people to use something less, make them pay for it every time they use it (there are no PT passes in Queensland).
Also, people rarely compare total car ownership costs, which some PT advocates are fixated on, vs fares. It's per trip decision if you have a car already.