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Rescuers recover more than 260 bodies at music festival attacked by Hamas
(www.independent.co.uk)
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this post was submitted on 09 Oct 2023
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"I used to have support for the Native Americans, but then a tribe massacred an outpost on the land that was slowly being carved from them by colonizers. Now I've lost all goodwill for their struggle"
The indigenous, oppressed peoples proceed to get wiped out and the colonizing states take over the entire land mass
This type of violence does not need to celebrated. It should be mourned as tragic. Its perpetrators condemned.
But so many are applying fairness or rules to a conflict that has neither.
If you create the conditions for war and terrorism, do not be surprised when war and terrorism come.
There's a difference between attacking unarmed civilians at a music festival and war. The terrorists should always be condemned, and you're painting with far too broad of a brush here.
There's a difference between freedom fighters and murderers.
I agree with your main point. The actions of the Hamas are abhorrent. But many here are equating it with the will of all Palestinians and that's simply not true.
I don't understand how these acts, which clearly will not help Palestinians, can be seen as the something they all would want.
I don't think it's the will of all Palestinians and absolutely shouldn't be considered as such, but that's why the denunciation must be absolute in order to bring legitimacy to the cause. It's the same reason MLK would leave cities if rioting began. I wish it didn't have to be this way but too many people are unable to think with a healthy dose of nuance.
Last time I checked, only fascists believe "the will of an ethnic group" is even a thing.
You can still condemn the terrorists -- 99% of the people in those conditions have chosen not to go on a murderous rampage of civilians.
I agree though, by and large. Hamas is the problem here, not Palestinians, and Hamas should be condemned by everybody. Its hard to say that they're trying to help Palestinians when they do attacks like this, knowing full well they are associated with Palestine. The attack has certainly changed my perspective about them operating out of civilian buildings. They're using Palestinians as living hostages.
It would be in everybody's best interest for a global coalition to root them out and Israel to get a non apartheid government. But we all know none of that is going to happen.
The problem as others stated above, is that Palestinian and Hamas are often interchangeable. Just like Russian and anti-LGBTQ.
When the majority of your people support the regime, you can't reasonably claim your well meaning minority is actually how it is. It's not.
America had its same epiphany when they realized the vast majority of Republicans aren't just some fooled centrist hanging with the wrong people. They're fascist shit stains too, they're just quiet or polite about it lol.
https://apnews.com/article/hamas-middle-east-science-32095d8e1323fc1cad819c34da08fd87
I don't think it's fair to go by older polls. This attack may have significantly shifted opinions.
actually there was ~1000 attacckers coming from gaza thats 0.05% of the population
What do you think raping and massacring people at a music festival is going to do?
That clearly isn't "fighting back". It's not war, its not even terrorism. They aren't achieving any sort of win, or working towards independence.
This is honestly a disgusting comment.
Nothing, just cause more suffering. But this isn't a bad guy vs good guy argument. The point that's being made is that extremism tends to be a product of its environment.
Please note that this is not an anti-Israel line of arguing.
Conditions in Gaza are terrible and many people have lost loved ones during their lives there. It creates an environment where extremism can flourish. It's not a certainty, but the probability is just much higher in environments that are severely deprived.
The actions of Hamas are inexcusable, and Israel will surely want to bring them to justice. But after that it's time to acknowledge that if conditions in Gaza are kept as poor as they are, the chances of this type of violence happening again are almost guaranteed. It's also in the interest of Israel to allow and facilitate improved conditions in Gaza.
So... then how about you simply condemn the perpetrators instead of making excuses for them and blaming the victims.
People that have been conditioned to hate Israel really can't help themselves can they? You must know how terrible it looks that you're trying to hamasplain this shit, but you literally can't stop yourself from doing it can you?
The world isn't so black and white.
Hamas doing unspeakable things doesn't make Israel the good guys in this conflict.
this is like me making a hole in my roof and then blaming the rain
Uh... you're gonna have to clarify which side you mean here.
While it's pretty clear Native Americans were in America first- not so much with the current belligerents.
Palestine was already a country in 1947. Not so much for Israel.
*British Mandate
And Israel has been a country for the last 50 years. The Six Day War is already over. They lost.
Now, they will lose everything else.
When do you start the timeline though? The Palestine / Israel conflict has been going for 100 years right? Are you comfy saying Israel is the original aggressor?
Full disclosure: I dislike all fundamentalist religious societies. I don't believe in holy land, and I think people on both sides are reaping what they've sown by insisting they are gods chosen people. So I'm not defending Israel, but I'm not defending Palestine (and especially Hamas) either.
Obviously Israel is the original aggressor
Then please point to the original aggression
Sorry its just so rare to find someone who completely understands every aspect of a 100 year war and has all the answers.
So nothing that happened pre-Nakba matters, Amin al-Husseini and the attacks in the 1920's don't count because reasons?
Lol all my comments make it clear I hate zionists. Fuck zionists.
So you admit there's no single starting point for the conflict if pre-nakba events are taken into account, you just like to make an incredibly complex issue black and white to make yourself feel smart then? Its fine for Palestinian nationalists to take actions to expel jews from the region that became Israel, but because Israel formed a state to defend itself, they are in the wrong?
If neither side were fundamentalist shit heads trying to destroy their neighbors way of life, they wouldn't have these problems. When Arabs were the majority with the power the killed and drove the jews out in the name of nationalism, now the Israelis do the same
And both groups disgust me, and would hurt and destroy my way of life if they had the power to do so. If pslestinian Arabs wanted to use the dhemmi system when they had power, what right do they have to insist equal treatment now? Bunch of hypocrites
The world would be better off if Jerusalem were wiped off the planet. Then no one gets it. Problem solved.
You can fuck off first, no one is forcing you to talk to me.
So pre-Nakba counts, but also doesn't count.
Israel is to blame because they formed a state, which 'set the stage' for these events, and made them 'colonizers', but violence against jews pre-Israel was fine because they didn't have a state so that violence was in the name of nationalism, not colonizing, so its ok violence
I have a 'hateful little brain' for bringing up events that happened in the time of 'great-great-grandparents', but Palestinians are justified in hanging on to land ownership rights from the times of their great-great-grandparents.
I'm a 'hateful atheist' for pointing out that people who identify as fundamentalist followers of violent ideologies are statistically more likely to kill not only each other, but secular people like me. I should do my best to elevate these people so they can have the opportunity to force their religion and culture on me next. (Real paradox of tolerance test there - also, did you read this as applying to only Palestinians who support Hamas? it also applies to Israelis who are zionist. )
I get that Israel is kicking the shit out of Gaza recently. I think you get that if Palestine had all the power, they'd be kicking the shit out of Israel. Its just that you think that would be justified because you're a racist/bigot/insert one of your insults here.
I also get that Israel is shitty for killing kids in Gaza. Thats why fuck zionists / fuck Israel - they got the land they wanted, and they wouldn't stop.
Religious bullshit never stops.
98% of Palestinians are Sunni Muslims who support Sharia law. Show me the government of Palestine that doesn't. They elected Hamas.
People like you easily blame all Americans for the actions of american government. You easily blame Israelis for the actions of Israel government. But you want zero responsibility for Palestinians for Palestinians government. Get over yourself, self-righteous hypocrite.
I'd rather watch you try to keep convincing yourself that everyone else is a hateful ass and you are the only one who understands Israel / Palestine, and its such an easy conflict to solve if we'd all just admit Palestinians are the ultimate victims... and ... what? kick Israel out of the middle east? I don't think I've heard your solution.
TO summarize: When they had power and they chose to make a 2 tiered society: that was long ago - they can't be blamed for that.
When Palestine thought they had enough power to get rid of Israel, and they tried to do it in a war they lost - they can't be blamed for that. Those were 'colonizers' they were trying to kill.
When they elected Hamas and attacked Israel, they can't be blamed for that because they were frustrated at their lack of power.
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
So you have no solution, but just want everyone to pretend these people can get along in the meantime, and anyone who says otherwise is a bigot. Despite a long history of violence showing they cannot get along. I get it. It's the typical neo-liberal view of the world. 'All religions and lifestyles can coexist if we put on enough blinders'. (and subjugate people hard enough under capitalism)
You probably scream FREE PALESTINE every chance you get, but have no idea what that even means, and have no answers for Israeli citizens safety if the walls fell down tomorrow.
I like how people on your side drop APARTHEID STATE into the conversation as if its the ultimate nuke, and then people on the other side drop SUPPORTING TERRORISTS KILLING BABIES into the conversation to nuke back. Both self-righteous as fuck about your own losses and ignorant (or secretly happy about) of the other sides losses. So I guess you're the 'SUPPORTING TERRORISTS KILLING BABIES' type then if we are sticking to the black/white script?
At least you admit you infantilize Palestinians to the point where you no longer believe they have agency. Nothing they do is their fault. Do you stick with that line when you see a Palestine immigrant involved in violence abroad?
edit: in case you're wondering why Im not bothering to cite your hypocrisy to you - I don't care whether you see evidence you're a hypocrite. I'm more interested in unwinding the belief system that allows you to hatefully attack me as a racist bigot for days for pointing out that religious fundamentalist groups beget awful violence everywhere they go, but love and steadfastly defend Palestine as innocent victims.
And yeah, I guess if you think they are essentially babies without agency, it makes sense. You see me as an adult with choices, and i've chosen to turn away from helping religious fundamentalists (and you're mad I even say that most Palestinians are religious fundamentalists! even though that seems to be what evidence suggests .... but again 'nothing they do is their fault!').
You see yourself as loving and me as hateful. But I dunno. Im betting if you heard I got my brains beat in by a Palestinian for expressing these views openly, you'd feel happy. Tell me Im wrong. The most you'd feel is 'well, the Palestinian couldn't have helped it, their history made them this way'. Some might say you are practicing benevolent racism.
LOL I guess to shut you up I only had to give you a taste of your own medicine then! You were typing novels
I assure you, its just as hard to read coming from a self-righteous, racist hypocrite! Good day 👍
Are you still going? I thought you had tired yourself out. Sure you're not projecting with all that?
Ok, but there is literally a post on the front page of .ml saying you are not allowed to even use the word "condemn"
well put.
oppress a population until they fight back and then yell terrorism
That's a lot of words for refusing to just agree that murdering and raping civilians at a concert is indeed bad, even when the oh so oppressed Hamas raider thugs do it.
They aren't the oppressed indigenous folks, they're the corrupt rez bosses that suction off all the jobs and projects to benefit their clique, brutally disappear anyone who speaks out against them or even just says something they decide they don't like, and then claim any outside judgement is targeted harassment.
No, a terrorist pillaging, mass raping and murdering of civlians is not "if you create the conditions for war and terrorism..." despite the whinging of Hamasaboos insisting otherwise these monsters actively chose to murder civlians, actively chose to rape civilians, and kept actively choosing to do it when at no point was there any juncture where choosing to do so could be in any way construed as justified or necessary.
People trying to claim this is retaliatory violence make me fucking sick to my stomach as a Palestinian American. You fucking Bougeyevik fetishizers try to sweep this under some victim blaming rug as if us le oppressed global southis are unjustly oppressed when held to the lofty standards of "don't rape and murder civilians."
I don't want excuses for their behaviour, I don't want westsplainers telling me that it's fine and dandy for my kin to commit such heinous and vile acts. I don't want le revolutionaries leading global liberation from their $3,500 gaming rig bought by their upper middle class mittelpolitik parents to fetishize my people's struggle to the point where any sin committed painted in that struggle's colors is to be defended and qualified and whataboutismed like a vital supply route that will end the struggle overnight if the mere point is conceded that yes, Hamas raping and Murdering civilians is indeed bad and without excuse, justification, or proportionately causal context.
I want these thugs rounded up and put to Nuremberg Part II, I want Israel to drop the colonialist pretenses and join with the PLO to found a new democratic state with strict human rights protections, and I want any supremacist or separatist who'd challenge that necessity for any hope of a lasting peace to be dragged to the sea they wanted to push the other side into, and forced to go in and never come out again.
Because everyone who lives there has a fucking right to keep living there, because freedom of movement is a human right, and the land doesn't belong to anyone, and acting like it can belong to someone is literally the batshit insane nonsense that got us here to begin with!
dammī falasTēnī, 'annā beitla7mī, wa'anna sayim kitīr la'enton!
nobody said that XD
people just understand why this happened and only a fool would be surprised that an oppressed population will react wildly eventually.
Hamas are not the oppressed, they are the oppressors.