The hate for rural/suburban areas is really bordering on malthusianism with the assumption that relocation to cities is the only option. (hexbear.net)

submitted 1 year ago by happybirthdaygonzolo@hexbear.net to c/urbanism@hexbear.net

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You all do realize that suburbs existed before the invention of the car right? American infrastructure is bad but it’s not irredeemable, the assumption that we can’t provide public transportation to these places because of a lack of resources is malthusian. And sure some places like the American Southwest and Florida are legitimately over human population carrying capacity due to climate change but in general the earth as a whole isn’t, and cities like Amsterdam are just as unsustainable as Miami since even though has one of those le epic reddit notjustbikes cityskylines approved infrastructure, both are below the sea level.

I think in general our message should be abolish the need to own the automobile, any measures meant to limit car use should target the rich before the poor. And that trains are good, and that a high speed train across the United States would be a rather popular project in the eyes of even the chuds. And by god stop calling for the suburbs to be razed, stop trying to be zoomer Robert Moses.

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[-] ped_xing@hexbear.net 0 points 1 year ago

It's an analogy. I'll make it explicit with ordered pairs where the first argument pertains to economics in general and the second is transit-specific.

Cars being allowed is like capitalism in that the amenities available to one group of people (the working class, non-drivers) are controlled by another (the bourgeoisie, drivers). That can turn out horribly (the US, Columbus' not having a subway) or somewhat OK for now (Scandinavian model, SF BART). The problem with shooting for "somewhat OK for now" is that when things get tight, the class that calls the shots can and will yoink the nice things away -- (austerity measures in Sweden, BART almost shutting down weekend services).

The solution is to upend the class dynamic itself via (revolution, car ban).

[-] TreadOnMe@hexbear.net 1 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

A 'car-ban' without any redistribution of wealth or reallocation of the means of production is not analogous to a 'revolution'. They are not equivalent terms, and this is not an equivalent analogy. You are just misusing terms and pretending that it is somehow Marxist or Maoist because you've structured the argument to appear like that. It's even worse because there is no need to use analogy here! We know how this works! We can watch it happen in real time!

The reason that it is not equivalent is that 'drivers' do not dictate where the roads go. The real estate bourgeoisie, in partnership with the state, dictate where the roads go. If you want to ban cars, you have to start with attacking the power of the owners of the real estate. There is no point in attacking commodity production or usage in a city you do not have immediate control over, it is a fight you cannot win long-term politically because the very financial materialist nature of the city politics is tied up in real estate ventures and they will always be able to outbid you. My point is that it is a fight that you will not win. If you are going to fight a losing battle, you might as well fight for one that actually matters, that is actually revolutionary.

[-] ped_xing@hexbear.net 0 points 1 year ago

'drivers' do not dictate where the roads go

Drivers as a whole, no. If you're a poor driver, you have no say. I'm not saying that all drivers have a say, I'm saying that everyone who has a say is a driver.

Could you share your reasoning on real estate necessarily being on the side of cars? A car-free zone in Manhattan where the residents aren't subject to incessant honking would be the most attractive place there and everyone who owns land there could make bank.

[-] TreadOnMe@hexbear.net 1 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

Again, things are not driven by popular demand. The idea that things are driven by popular consumer demand is liberal market mythology. They are driven by profitability, and the profitability on larger single housing buildings is better because it's a one-time large negotiated purchase, rather than multiple small fish negotiations. Profitability always wants to cater to the whale because it is easier to sit on an asset and then jackpot, and there are no bigger whales than at this time in capitalism. This then moves on to my second point, which is more on the ideological side of the materialist dialectic.

Have you ever actually met or known any rich people in the U.S.? I don't mean their fail-children that pretend to slum it up, or influencer-rich. I mean, honest-to-god 1% old-wealth rich people. They hate interacting with the public. They want to be as far away from the public as possible at all times. Even other rich people that they don't know or haven't been introduced to. These people already have private gardens, private gyms, private drivers, private everything there is no need for them to have a public space. The way they live is completely alien. They are on the side of cars because the car is a private space that separates them from the public. It probably doesn't even occur to them that they would like to be able to walk somewhere and walk back without a car. They just have whatever they need delivered, and then drive or are driven to wherever they want to walk around. The whales don't demand walkability, they demand privacy, and the car provides privacy. You say they could make bank, but they know in their hearts that's not true, and even if it were, I doubt it would even occur to them to ask. They assume everybody wants what they have, everyone values what they value, and that is what they are going to provide. Eternal private spaces.