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this post was submitted on 28 Jul 2023
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The narrative that the average joe is to blame for this shit is so infuriating to me. Myself and 50,000 other people could start walking everywhere and it very likely wouldn’t come close to offsetting the emissions of Amazon’s fleet of trucks.
Yes individual consumption matters, but there’s a very small group of individuals called billionaires that contribute 1000x more than you or I ever could. BP invented the idea of the individual carbon footprint.
The average person is the reason Amazon exists, so... That's still on the average person.
This is what people miss in this false dichotomy. Businesses only exist because demand exists. Countries need to start passing unpopular things like Carbon Taxes to seal the deal against climate change by hitting consumer demand and raising prices
Oddly enough, without changing buying habits or consumer demand, I think the Amazon truck is a superior option.
The trick, as you said, is to change consumer behavior and people balk at doing that, especially when it will cost more and income inequality hits harder than ever. Tax the rich, level the playing field, and the rest gets much easier.
Be real mate. Thats not how it works.
Suppliers create the demand.
People werent demanding smartphones before smartphones got invented.
Most new things are shunned by most people until they slowly gain popularity and then the demand starts to exist.
You are stating the hypothesis of capitalism whilst ignoring the conclusion.
Suppliers do not create demand lol
Some of us were adults in 08 when lack of demand crippled the world
I was 21. I remember.
Im not saying demand doesnt fuel supply.
Im only saying supply can create demand.
I'm not demanding products which harm the environment made using methods which harm the environment. Businesses make the choice to produce those things instead of carbon-neutral environmentally friendly products, so they are more at fault than the individual who buys the thing. It's extremely difficult for an individual to be able to uncover the environmental implications of everything you buy and do. The only real solution is to pass laws which properly account for the harmful externalities in the production cost, such as carbon tax. That will steer both businesses and consumers towards more sustainable decisions.
I also am demanding similar products, which is why capital has already shifted (and continues to shift) toward green/sustainables.
We don't need laws to provide for externalities of consumption in most markets. Most markets are being changed by consumer demand.
What would be most effective is carbon pricing. Unfortunately, that is a non-starter with most voters as it essentially means price increases across the board (which would actually be more helpful during inflation, but people never see it that way)
Yeah, I wonder how big that capital shift actually is. Most companies are greenwashing, saying products are sustainable and carbon neutral when surprise, surprise, they are not. As a consumer you can't even trust those products. As a small example you got H&M recently pulling back they Conscious line and lying about recyling clothes that actually ended up in landfills.
If you want to kill BP, stop buying oil. The Amazon fleet is about 70,000 vehicles and they're transitioning to electric right now.
Consumers drive markets. Mega corporations aren't polluting for the fun of it. They do it because it's a byproduct of them taking our money. Stop giving them money and they stop polluting. Why else would they stop?
"Voting with your dollar" is bullshit. Just stop buying oil? Ok, let me go to the no oil store and buy a new car that doesn't run on gas and isn't made with any plastic. Let me spend my entire 5 dollars worth of disposable income to buy a new vehicle. And then take that vehicle to the store that has 0 petroleum products. No cans lined with PFAS, no plastic bags, no plastic packaging, no products made entirely of plastic. Never fly again in your life, or take the bus. Don't you even think about eating out again. Live life as a hermit, make your own goods, provide your own services and maintinence to yourself to ensure an oil free existence. Better start soon too, the planets only getting hotter. Rinse and repeat x8,000,000,000.
Markets are driven by capital. Those with the most capital have the greatest influence. Your pittance of a wage isn't going to change a damn thing. 10% of the global population has 52% of the purchasing power. Even if the other 90% of us all united together at once, about a single thing, we still wouldn't have the purchasing power to overwhelm them. You can't reform a system that's made to perpetuate consumption and pollution. It's cheaper to pollute by design. Do you think it's a coincidence that bills meant to make polluting more expensive either don't get passed or are so rife with loopholes they're effectively useless? Pull your head out of your ass. If there was ever a time this shit show could be reformed, it's long gone.
You mean an electric car?
There are options for consumers. Some of them cost more right now, others are an investment that pay off later. Buy those and not the polluting option and low and behold the markets change. Why do you think oil companies are starting to diversify more
What's the trim in the electric car made of? How about the insulation around the wires? The clear coat on the paint? The lamination layer in the glass? What about the headlights and tail lights? The bumper covers? The logo and model letters? How was it delivered to the dealership for you to buy? You think there wasn't any oil consumed in the mining and refining of the non petroleum materials that constitute the rest of the vehicle? You said stop buying oil. Not stop using gasoline.
The oil in your plastics for your car aren't being burned, so they don't contribute nearly as much as gasoline and diesel fuels do towards climate change.
Today is completely impossible to eliminate plastics from the global economy, so ranting about plastic use making it impossible to stop climate change is a red herring.
Only about 10% of oil goes into plastic. We can also make bioplastics out of corn and other agricultural products.
The oil to make that plastic still needs to be pumped out of the ground, refined, and manufactured into an end product. Leaving a trail of carbon emissions and other pollution along the way. It doesn't just come out of the ground shaped into whatever you want it to be. Bioplastics made from corn are also very resource intensive to produce. While a better option, they're not perfect either. It's really not a red herring. Just because it isn't polluting as an end product doesn't mean they're clean. And with things like toxic fumes from off gassing and the products from plastic degradation having long term consequences, it's not like they just stop being bad as finished products either.
Ok, stop buying gasoline then. Because the vast majority of oil is used for fuels. Only a small percentage is used for plastics, like less than 1%. 50% is used for gasoline alone.
Simpler? Imagine if we could reduce oil GHGs by 50%. Just by changing the way consumers drive.
Global production of oil per day is about 90 million barrls. If we use your 50% for gasoline production that's 45 million barrels. Or 16.425 billion per year. 3.2 billion barrels.) are used annually in the US. Or 19.45% of the global supply of gasoline. About 76% of that is used by individuals. And that's a generous estimate. The average mpg of a car on the road in the US is 36. The average American drives 13.5k miles per year. Leading to an roughly average annual consumption of 365 gallons per driver per year. 83% of Americans drive frequently. Leaving an annual consumption of about 2.46 billion barrels per year for private citizens gasoline consumption. Or 14.9% of global gas consumption. And again that's being generous on the average consumption per citizen. I couldn't find any real numbers on the actual amount of gas consumed by individuals for individual needs in the US.
Also, globally, 45% of oil is used for gasoline. 29% for diesel and the remaining 26% are used for plastic and other products. So my percentage of the us' consumption per year, and in return the average citizen is exaggerated by a decent margin. That's not to mention the fact that the majority of the US' industry runs on diesel. So if we're going by petroleum fuels, the impact of the average US citizens gas consumption is even lower. You're trying to eliminate 75% of 19% of 45%, or 6.4% of the total problem by switching to electric. And, again, that's being generous.
Institutional problems CANNOT be changed by individual action. We need a lot more than 6.4% of pollution to stop if we even have a shot at unfucking ourselves. The answer to overconsumption isn't more consumption
E: let's also consider the fact that the majority of people with a car can't afford to buy an electric car. What are they supposed to do? Stop going to work? Stop buying groceries? Walk miles for every errand? We can't electric car our way out of catastrophe
I don't think you read your source. The little figure of the oil drum shows 6/45 gallons goes to other products, including some to pladtics. That's 13% not 26. And it's wrong to say all of that is plastic is hilariously wrong.
You could have saved yourself all that time and math and gone to a single source about how much GHGs come from domestic drivingbin the US. Here it is
But maybe you're thinking that the money Americans spend on gas in a year is piddly. After all it's only $562 Billion a year. Pocket change for BP, right?
So do you think that eliminating that many tonnes of CO2 and that many barrels of oil from companies bottom line would have an impact? Maybe just a little itsy Bitsy tiny bit?
Or are you just going to keep pretending that consumer choices don't drive markets and climate change.
When you don't have a choice in the matter due to lack of capital, disenfranchisement, exploitation, lack of transparency, corporate consolidation, and corruption, it's not really a choice. I couldn't stop driving or buying petroleum products right now if I wanted to. And I do. I'm too poor. And many people are in the same boat. I stopped eating meat, buy clothes second hand, use vegan products in environmentally friendly packaging whenever I can, pack my own lunch, only use a metal water bottle (with a plastic lid because that's all that was available to me), support green initiatives, donate, protest and encourage others to do the same. It doesn't fucking matter at the end of the day.
It's cheaper for companies to pollute and lie when they're required to clean their act up. They buy politicians, write their own laws, move production to countries with more lax/no environmental protection and fabricate evidence of curbing emissions and pollution when they can't avoid it. They will always avoid taking responsibility for their pollution because it's cheaper than restructuring their entire business model. From soap to gasoline, it is always more cost effective to take the dirtiest, laziest route in production because they made it that way.
Individual choices can help. But to say it's the best, most effective way to fix climate change is just a straight up lie. How about you respond to literally anything else I've had to say? Too difficult to argue against?
Additionally, I said 26% to plastics AND other products, which is a direct quote from my source, just below the graphic you mentioned. Are we just going to ignore the fact you said less than 1% is used for plastic in a previous comment? 13% of that 26 is used, primarily ,for other fuels. Fules that are largely used by industry, not individuals. And the same for diesel for that matter. Mostly industry, not individuals. What am I supposed to do about that? Tell global shipping and transportation infrastructure that if they don't cut it out I'm gonna stop buying their shit? The portion of that market where my dollar directly contributed to it is small. And the same can be said about everyone else.
You shift between gasoline and GHGs to suit your needs. One comment its "stop buying gasoline" as if that's a possibility for most people anyway, now this one it's "focus on the emissions". Because when I give you the numbers in gasoline consumption, its apparent how little our gas consumption contributes to global oil use. But GHGs are a bigger number, so bigger is better and I'm wrong now? Keep it consistent.
The global oil market earned 4 trillion Last year. You think that piddly 56 billion is a big deal?
Regulations are the only thing that can enforce corporations to do the right thing every time. Free market might make them do it every now and then.
Example: do you want free market to (maybe) decide on use of asbestos and lead in fuel or regulations against them right away?
While true that they're not polluting for fun, many corporations will try to avoid any anti-pollution measure that will lose them money. To the point where they spend billions of dollars every year to lobby governements, enviromental protection organizations, and drag out regulations with lawsuits. Because in the long run it's usually worth it for them to pollute, as long as the investors see enough profits in the short term.
Of course they will. Corporations do not care. They will only do things that make them money. Either because governments threaten to take away their money. Or because markets change and they're no longer making money so they have to change.
We have seen this with so so so many industries over the centuries. Consumers change behaviours and businesses move to fit their needs. If everyone here started eating less meat there would be more investment in plant based ideas. Because they don't care about what the impacts of their company are. They care what you and I are buying.
They are not doing this because of the goodness of their heart. They are doing it because of $$$$. Gas costs more, so it's more economical to switch to electric.
Rest assured, if there are other places where it's more economical to strip mine the environment and increase the rate of climate change, they will switch to that cheaper method in a heartbeat, if they aren't already doing so.
Not to support Amazon, but those trucks on optimized delivery routes are likely better for the environment than individials each driving their own cars to box stores...
If only we had some nationalized way to deliver parcels on an optimized route…
Not if you keep ordering shit from amazon it won't. It will prevent 50,000 people's worth of transportation emissions, though.
Don't sell yourself short. You're more responsible for the situation than you want to admit.
Wrong. The top 0.1% pollute 10x as much (per capita) as the top 10% (excluding the top 0.1%). Source
If the strongest argument against an idea is "the wrong people came up with it", the idea is probably pretty good.
you don’t know me buddy. I don’t use Amazon and I pretty much only drive to and from work. good fucking luck not giving Amazon money given that AWS hosts millions of companies websites.
/e ALSO top 0.1% isn’t a small enough group to address what I’m talking about. Try top 0.01%, that’s about where you’ll find billionaires.
According to your source, the top 1% emit 50 tonnes of CO2/capita/yr. The top 0.1% emit 200 tonnes of CO2/capita/yr. That is still an insane increase the wealthier one becomes.
Not saying that one should not try to limit their emissions (we definitely should stop buying stuff from amazon/big companies, if not to limit emissions, at least to break their monopolies), but there is definitely some low hanging fruit in that top percentage (e.g. having 800 people limit emissions is going to be harder when you have the same effect by just limiting the 8 at the top).
Also you're last sentence is quite hostile, BP definitely came up with it to avoid their responsibility and pivot it to other people. The idea might not be 'bad' per se, but if you do it so to avoid your own responsibility, it is definitely bad practice (which, again, is why each of us should try to limit our carbon emissions)
Of course. By the same token, individuals trying to avoid their own responsibility by parroting "big oil invented the idea of a carbon footprint" is definitely bad practice.
Sure, which is why I mentioned (twice) that everyone should try and limit their emissions in my original comment.
What you however skipped in your reply is the fact that the richest 8 people limiting their emissions has the same effect as the 792 people beneath that limiting their emissions. From a perspective of 'quick wins' (which we sorely need), I am totally in favour of placing more responsibility on those with the highest emissions (without anyone neglecting their responsibility, so please don't just point out one group as 'responsible' to pivot away the blame).
In the same vein, BP pivoting away the blame has about the same impact as thousands (millions?) of individuals pivoting away the blame, which is why they are (or at least should be) held to a higher standard.
I skipped it because I agree. There's nothing to debate on that point.
However, the point of my first reply was to highlight that this perspective is often exaggerated to paint the global middle class (the top 10% richest people on the planet, i.e. most people in western Europe and the anglosphere) as innocent victims when in fact they are also to blame. This is what I replied to:
This sentiment is oft-repeated on this kind of post, and the implication that "average joe" is not responsible is not only wrong, but actively harmful.
You existing is why those companies use that energy.
I agree that it's BS to put the blame on the average person's behavior.
But the blame is on us collectively.
We use a lot of energy.
Those companies are the reason that energy isn’t produced with cleaner alternatives like nuclear, wind, or solar
Billionaires and corporations lobby governments and donate to superPACs(legal bribery) to have them promote their business interests and protect their capital.
Infinite growth is not sustainable on a finite planet. The billionaires aren’t going to save us. Buying stuff is not going to save us. Neoliberalism and Capitalism is not going to save us.
either way the average joe is gonna need to do something cuz the billionaires wont. lets just kill them
Try shipping vessels. I think I read that 7 of them are responsible for an incredible high percentage of all emissions or something
Sulfate emissions.
Which are bad, but are not CO2 emissions.
The entire shipping industry is a small fraction of the US's automobile emissions.
The rule of thumb I was taught many years ago in operations management class was that shipborne cargo freight, on a TEU basis, uses less fuel to get from Hong Kong to Los Angeles as it did to deliver that freight to the store in North America. It's 100x less impactful in terms of CO2 output as trucking.
https://climate.mit.edu/explainers/freight-transportation
you do realise that these companies do these things because customers buy them, right? If you didn't buy stuff on amazon, there wouldn't be any amazon trucks around.
Hate to be devils advocate here, but even if billionaires contribute 1000x each, there is just one of them for 1000x1000x1000x1000x people so in total their contribution does not matter. What matters is their business choices which favor unsustainable practies for billions of people, so eventually they have a huge effect, just not directly.
While true that total consumption is less than the rest of the population, billionaires have a very large influence and people try to mimic them. If they don't set an example and still fly everywhere in a private jet, those 1000x1000x1000x1000x people will also say f it, if a billionaire can't do it, I certainly can't.
I think that billionaires are some kinde of problem but megacorps (big 9, Nestle, cocacola, fashion industry) are much worst :(
This is just the same buck-passing that BP was doing.
You are personally responsible for your own contribution.
You are doubly responsible for giving money to BP or Chevron.
You have control over some things in your life. If you choose to live like the average american driving everywhere, eating meat, and inefficiently climate controlling a building that is far bigger than needed and poorly insulated, then you are choosing to emit an amount of CO2 that will contribute to several deaths.
You are also directly giving the oil, gas, and meat industries the resources to kill many more.
Just because BP passed the buck, doesn't exonerate you.
As I said above, you people don’t know me. It’s absolutely not the same as BP because I don’t make billions off of poisoning the planet. Nor have I stifled alternative energy for a hundred years.
Kill rich people.