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submitted 3 days ago* (last edited 3 days ago) by federalreverse@feddit.org to c/europe@feddit.org

Hi.

In the past few days, discontent regarding mod decisions in this community has been brewing, particularly when it comes to comments on Palestine, Israel, and Israeli politics and actions. There are also misunderstandings regarding mod intention and German law. We hope to clear that up with this post.

While the servers of feddit.org are in Austria, most of the mods of this community as well as admins of this server live in Germany. Speaking of, our server admins have also posted a write-up on the same topic.

And with that, let's go:

In Germany, antisemitism is specifically sanctioned in German criminal law, both for speech and as a motivation for other criminal behavior. In addition, Germany seeks to protect the Jewish state of Israel (the so-called "Reason of State" introduced in 2008) and thus verges toward protecting Zionism as well. Certain criticism of Israel/Israelis is also categorized as "Israel-related antisemitism".

Since criminal law is involved, enforcement can mean things like police raids and device confiscations. After such police action, it does not really matter if it was appropriate or if cases are dropped or never charged: The damage is done. All told, it's not that fun.

There is also no point in engaging in discussions about the veracity of statements that could get us into legal trouble. In addition, we believe that you can express most opinions without breaking rules.

If your comment contains the following, it will be removed from this community:

  • Calling for the dissolution of Israel, or calling for a one-state solution without specifying equal rights for all people; Jewish in particular.
  • Calling for a destruction, annihilation, an end of all Zionism or the like.
  • Equating Israeli actions and (historical) Nazism.
  • The slogan "from the river..."
  • Endorsement of or justifications for Hamas or Hezbollah, or slogans or graphics positively referring to these organizations. These are considered terrorist organizations in Germany.
  • ... and obviously: Any of the common antisemitic tropes or calls to violence against Jews or Israelis

Comments will not be removed for the following:

  • Denouncing genocide.
  • Denouncing Israeli war crimes.
  • Criticizing Zionism as an ideology or political movement.
  • Referring to the current Israeli government as "criminal," "expansionist," or "far-right".

If your comment is removed nonetheless, these are not the reason. I'd also like to stress that this community was never a free-speech-absolutist zone: It is a (usually lightly) moderated community. There may also be times when bans go too far. In such cases, please DM the @EuroMod@feddit.org account (which all mods have access to).

To help you understand why, I'll leave an assortment of sources here (translations via DeepL).

  • A news report:

    Berlin in mid-May [2024] around 6 o'clock in the morning. A loud, continuous "banging" against the apartment door wakes student Alina T. from her sleep. [...] When her husband opens the door, several LKA officers, two employees of the district office and the SEK "storm" past him into the apartment. Puzzled, he looks at the search warrant. [...] The background to this was a Facebook entry in the student's profile: "From the river [...]

  • A legal treatise:

    In November 2023, the Federal Ministry of the Interior and for Home Affairs also issued a prohibition order against Hamas.[60] According to the order, "the slogan 'From the River to the Sea' (in German or other languages)" is a distinguishing mark of Hamas[61]. [...] the current legal situation [regarding "Denial of Israel's right to exist"] is - contrary to what the statements of the Federal Ministry of Justice suggest[63] - anything but clear. Whether incitements to eliminate the State of Israel are prosecuted depends on the respective legal opinion and the prosecution will of the respective public prosecutor's office.

  • Press release from the previous government:

    In this context, Section 111 StGB, which covers public incitement to commit crimes, may also be relevant. Incitement to extinguish Israel's existence by force may be punishable under this provision. The same applies to calls to publicly display the Hamas flag. If Hamas attacks are publicly cheered and celebrated, this may also be punishable. This means that people who cheer on Hamas's actions or publicly express their sympathy with the attacks may constitute the criminal offence of "approval of criminal acts" under Section 140 of the German Criminal Code (StGB).

  • Another news report

    In connection with the controversial Palestine Congress in Berlin, the German authorities have also imposed an entry ban on former Greek finance minister Yanis Varoufakis. "In order to prevent antisemitic and anti-Israel propaganda at the event", several entry bans have been issued, the news agency AFP learned from security sources on Sunday. One of these concerned Varoufakis. (Notably, Varoufakis would have spoken about one-state solutions ...)

  • Overview Germany in 2024 by Amnesty International

  • Overview Germany in 2024 by Human Rights Watch

federal reverse (on behalf of the mods of !europe)

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[-] can@sh.itjust.works 21 points 3 days ago* (last edited 2 days ago)

Anyhow, "dismantle Israel" sounds like you're intending a violent revolution of some sort.

Really? Is this a language barrier thing?

Edit: reading this back it could sound rude and that wasn't my intent.

[-] rumschlumpel@feddit.org 5 points 3 days ago* (last edited 3 days ago)

Israeli jews are probably not going to do that voluntarily ...

[-] LibertyLizard@slrpnk.net 9 points 3 days ago

I mean probably none of the solutions to this conflict are going to happen but it’s theoretically possible that they could. Many people across the world have dissolved their own government under certain (usually extreme) circumstances.

[-] can@sh.itjust.works 3 points 2 days ago

I see your point. What about dismantling the current government and systems that allowed it the power it now holds?

[-] rumschlumpel@feddit.org 5 points 2 days ago* (last edited 2 days ago)

Doesn't look like the majority of the population is interested in that, so it's either going to take a revolution led by a minority (definitely going to be violent) or intervention by a foreign occupying force (still probably going to be violent). TBH I don't really see a likely solution to this that's not going to be violent, heavy international pressure could work but the USA are not going to change their policy anytime soon, which also prevents a foreign occupying force; wouldn't even surprise me if they invaded if there was a revolution.

[-] rocket_dragon@lemmy.dbzer0.com 17 points 2 days ago

If you follow that line of reasoning:

Because we can't stop Israel without violence, any call to stop Israel is a call for violence against Israel.

And violence against Israel is banned.

So stopping Israel is banned.

So the rules enforce allowing Israel to continue a genocide.

The rules are pro-genocide.

[-] poVoq@slrpnk.net 5 points 2 days ago* (last edited 2 days ago)

By the same contrived logic you are pro-genocide as calling for the destruction of the Israeli state in an online forum also doesn't stop the genocide.

And anyways, by your logic if the only response to one genocide is another genocide, then yes that is also pro-genocide.

See how pointless such arguments are?

[-] timconspicuous@lemmy.ml 9 points 1 day ago

I find all of your comments here deeply shameful, especially since you are representing slrpnk.net, from your own manifesto:

The “punk” in Solarpunk is about rebellion, counterculture, post-capitalism, decolonialism and enthusiasm.

Yet you are using your voice here to defend state-mandated infringement of free speech, of decolonialist speech at the behest of the zionist project. I honestly think you should consider if you can still credibly administer slrpnk or alternatively if it makes sense for you to moderate a comm that is seemingly so misaligned with your professed values.

[-] poVoq@slrpnk.net 2 points 1 day ago

You can try to troll me with such entirely false accusations, but I can sleep well with my stance to be against all forms of genocide and zero tolerance on hate-speech. If you choose to be a campist that's on you 🤷

[-] rocket_dragon@lemmy.dbzer0.com 8 points 1 day ago

By the same contrived logic

No, those are absurd statements with no logic.

See how pointless such arguments are?

Yours are, mine isn't.

You could try actually addressing what I say instead of making absurd statements and then acting like you making absurd statements is proof that my statement is absurd.

[-] anarchiddy@lemmy.dbzer0.com 7 points 1 day ago

by your logic if the only response to one genocide is another genocide, then yes that is also pro-genocide

Yea, see this is the antisemitic version of zionism. Advocating for the liberation of Palestine isn't the same as advocating for a genocide or expulsion of Jews in Israel. It would be like saying WWII was ultimately a genocide of germans, since they were violently resisted in their conquest of Europe.

Yes, the resistance against genocide will almost certainly involve violence - that doesn't mean that advocating for resistance isn't justified, or even that advocating for violent resistance isn't justified. WWII would have been really short if we had rhetorically 'opposed' the holocaust, but banned any speech that even implied violence against Germans (including violent liberation to stop an active genocide).

[-] poVoq@slrpnk.net 3 points 1 day ago

As you say youself, there is a difference between arguing for equal rights of Palestinians and the expulsion of Jews from the territory that makes up modern day Israel.

The German government has decided that certain slogans commonly used by Arab antisemites are (criminally liable) dogwhistles for calling for a genocide on Jews in Israel. I wish they would apply more nuance but I can see where they are coming from.

[-] anarchiddy@lemmy.dbzer0.com 5 points 1 day ago

"From the river to the sea" isn't a slogan of genocide, it's a slogan of the type of liberation we've been discussing.

If you can't see the harm that law causes then I don't know what else to tell you.

[-] poVoq@slrpnk.net 2 points 1 day ago

You might not considers the slogan as such, but there are many other organized groups that do (like Hamas), and thus assuming it is commonly meant as such is not unreasonable. Maybe try to look outside of your bubble a bit and see who else is using the same slogans as you.

[-] Keeponstalin@lemmy.world 2 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago)

The reality that it is an emancipatory slogan. And no, organized resistance groups use the slogan to call for an end to apartheid and for equal rights. Claiming that they use it as a call for genocide is completely untrue and disingenuously wielded by Zionists to discredit the fact that it is emancipatory.

Yousef Munayyer, head of the Palestine-Israel program at the Arab Center Washington D.C., has written extensively about the meaning of the slogan before and since Hamas's attacks on Oct. 7, which led to Israel's current bombardment of the Gaza Strip.

"It's an expression of Palestinian nationalism and it's an expression of a demand for Palestinian freedom or self-determination," said Waxman. "I think Palestinian self-determination need not come at the expense of Jewish self-determination. Nor do I think Palestinian freedom has to be considered a threat to Jewish rights."

Simply put, the majority of Palestinians who use this phrase do so because they believe that, in 10 short words, it sums up their personal ties, their national rights and their vision for the land they call Palestine. And while attempts to police the slogan’s use may come from a place of genuine concern, there is a risk that tarring the slogan as antisemitic – and therefore beyond the pale – taps into a longer history of attempts to silence Palestinian voices.

The use of the phrase “from the river to the sea” has come under particular scrutiny in the last three months. When Palestinians, or anyone on the left, has used the phrase to demand a free Palestine—as in the popular chant, “From the river to the sea, Palestine will be free”—those on the right have disingenuously argued that it is calling for the death of all Jewish people in Israel.

In 2021, the Palestinian-American writer Yousef Munayyer argued that those who saw genocidal ambition in the phrase, or indeed an unambiguous desire for the destruction of Israel, did so due to their own Islamophobia.

It was instead, he argued, merely a way to express a desire for a state in which “Palestinians can live in their homeland as free and equal citizens, neither dominated by others nor dominating them”.

Preventing any possibility of a Palestinian state has always been Israel’s policy, one that the settlement building in the Occupied Territories is meant to ensure. This policy has been intensified under Benjamin Netanyahu, who in January 2024 publicly vowed to resist any attempt to create a Palestinian state and to maintain Israeli control from the river to the sea.

It is often maintained that the slogan ‘From the river to the sea, Palestine will be free’ expresses a genocidal and antisemitic intention. But this is generally not the case. On the contrary, the slogan has historically been used to articulate a wide variety of political strategies for Palestinian liberation

Denying such demands seems as self-evident to most Israeli Jews as the air they breathe. It is this denial that has led to the dehumanization of Palestinians and has culminated in the genocidal mood that is prevailing in Israeli Jewish society today and in the assault taking place now in Gaza. This should be viewed as the real problem and not the legitimate chant of ‘from the river to the sea: Palestine will be free’.

[-] anarchiddy@lemmy.dbzer0.com 4 points 1 day ago

Id suggest the same to you.

this post was submitted on 16 May 2025
104 points (100.0% liked)

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