1438
neither left nor right rule
(lemmy.ml)
you are viewing a single comment's thread
view the rest of the comments
view the rest of the comments
this post was submitted on 25 Jul 2023
1438 points (100.0% liked)
196
16421 readers
1895 users here now
Be sure to follow the rule before you head out.
Rule: You must post before you leave.
founded 1 year ago
MODERATORS
I’ve participated often in a wide variety of conversations on a wide variety of platforms. The trick is, for some weird reason Centrists never vehemently argue with the right. I wonder why that is…
The truth is centrism is just a way to support the “convenient” part of conservatism while avoiding any blame for the “inconvenient” parts. It’s fence-sitting bullshit. Centrists simply equate to embarrassed conservatives.
One of many reasons for this could be your choice of topics, the location of the argument, and your perception. Any Centrists in the argument may be on your side of that particular issue and therefore are appearing left-leaning to you at the moment.
You not looking for them does not mean that they are not there. Them not coming out and identifying themselves continually does not mean they are not there.
Just like anything in science, your perception is not reality, especially when it seems that you are looking to enforce an opinion, not find the truth.
Most of the Centrists I've spoken to also tend to argue the issue, and not the side. They see sides and at-all-costs group membership as a form of lunacy.
I mean I only ever see the ones arguing with leftists actually admitting to being centrist, so if what you're saying is true then maybe the centrist arguing with rightists should consider improving their PR by being more vocal about it. Because y'all only ever seem to bring up your political affiliation when arguing with one particular side, so no wonder you've developed a reputation based on that.
They don't have PR. They're not a cohesive unit. I don't generally even like calling myself Centrist because I hate labels and don't like the way they encourage group-think. There's probably scads of Centrists I wouldn't get along with as well.
Yet you clearly identify as a centrist based on your comments on this thread. They're just as much a unit as the right or left based on how they behave and act on their political beliefs. Either you identify with centrists, in which case it's up to you to be the change you want to see in their reputation, or you don't, in which case their reputation shouldn't reflect on you.
I don't like people making baseless accusations. I defend people on all sides when people are wrong about their opposition. I hate it when people think they know what others think and project incorrect (and often evil) bullshit on each other. It's important to be right with the right reasoning and conclusion, not just one or the other.
I care when Christians purposely mischaracterize Muslims, and I am neither of those groups. I hate people being wilfully wrong because their group fetishizes a certain angle of the truth instead of the boring reality of the situation.
Ideas are important and I don't feel we can get out of the current shitty slump we're in politically unless we clearly identify and discuss the world. Labels and group membership make that harder to do.
So no, I don't really identify as a Centrist, but you may think I am. I don't "identify" as anything. I am me and I'm more complex than a few easy labels for you to slap on. Labels make it easier to dismiss people and ignore their words.
If I took the label Centrist, then that means I take the baggage you hold for the word, and I abjectly refuse to do so.
But you're not just defending centrists, you're responding to claims people make about centrists by saying "but I'm not like that so obviously not all centrists are like that". Your reply to pthaloblue elsewhere in the thread is an example of this. You clearly present yourself as a centrist there in direct response to someone talking about centrists. You seem to be arguing about this from the point of view of someone who feels like they're being personally attacked even though based on the actual beliefs you've mentioned and your own dislike of labels by all accounts you're not a centrist and thus not an example of what centrists are like.
Centrists lack gumption. They lack imagination. You propose anything that exists outside of the current capitalist hellhole that we live in, and they will be the first to argue "but what about jobs? What about the economy?"
This planet will be covered in arctic floodwater and the centrists will be too concerned about making sure we have a fair argument about it.
"Both sidesism" will be the death of us all.
You are casting a broad (and incorrect) net over a wide swath of people.
I would make none of those arguments you proposed.
I have a very strong environmental bent. I feel the world should be made uncomfortable now to avoid apocalypse. I would break apart mon- di- and even tri- opolies. I would overhaul the copyright system to enhance competition specifically because we're in a period where small companies are not capable or competing in the arenas that megacorps do. I would remove loopholes from tax and legal laws.
I would enforce corporations cleaning up after their messes. If that cleanup is too expensive for them to bear, then they should not be making those messes to begin with.
I would also refuse immigration from countries with more population than can be supported. I would push for a more cyclical global economy instead of relying on inter-governmental debt spirals. I would implement UBI.
I meet none of the standards you have laid out.
Who are you to tell me what I am, other than confidently incorrect?
That ain't centrism, that's neoliberalism. Go forth and be the best neoliberal you can be, I guess. But when the chuds start calling you a socialist, for proposing what seems reasonable to you, don't back down!
Maybe, but I wouldn't use the label. I want them to fight the ideas, not dismiss the label. Makes for better conversation.
I’d vote for you.
I very much appreciate that. I hope to one day try.
You’ve said the same thing three different ways now. If you are trying to assume I only discuss important matters on anonymous social media instead of at PTA meetings, divided family dialogue, protests, etc you’re wrong. I uphold my value of caring for others in every location, about every topic.
Centrists have the habit of excusing the most vile parts of conservatism for the parts they benefit from. They’ll consider voting for Trump, a proven liar/cheat/hatemonger over a milquetoast, truly milquetoast middle of the road Biden. The amount of gape necessary to straddle that fence could almost fit Trump himself inside it.
The truth is that the Dems are centrist. They’re not perfect, but conservatism is NOWHERE near the middle. Anyone can justify conservative policy cannot be a centrist. Just an embarrassed conservative.
I made no assumption about where you discuss anything. It was one provable example given.
I excuse none of the most vile parts of conservatism. I am not your enemy. I am not happy with status quo.
However, I hate the political "adjustment" of language, no matter which side carries it out. I hate making words more vague to try and mask reality. I hate how easily and liberally Nazi is thrown around.
I do not like polarization. I do not like driving away people who disagree with me. I do not like "cancelling" people no matter which party carries it out. I believe in innocent until proven guilty.
And I really, really fucking hate forcing people to believe what I do because their goddamn group membership word matches mine.
It’s easy not to like polarization when one specific side chooses hate as it’s platform. People bemoan the lack of polite discourse, empathy, and fact. I’m not going to normalize or treat as equal the viewpoints of hatred as a policy.
Conservatives haven’t had a real single idea aside from Outgroup of the Week since Reaganomics. And reagonmics is exactly what helped millionaires snowball into billionaires and create the very economic issues we are suffering now. There is no “fiscal conservative” anymore. It’s simply tax cuts for the rich.
So anyone that could even entertain the notion of voting for the political party that presented Trump as a president is not a centrist.
I’d believe someone from the US is centrist if they agreed with 87% of Biden’s extremely centrist policy.
You are speaking a lot about what a Centrist is to you. There is an irony to that and I implore you to recognize that. They are not a homogeneous group. You don't like the image you have of them that is largely manufactured of old pictures of your enemies spun into straw.
I'm Canadian and voted Liberal in the federal election, but I do understand US politics to a degree. I thought Trump was an absolute fool, and fools do so love their own. I understand to some degree why he won, though I feel voter apathy played as large a part as well.
Regardless, if I took a stance that would be typically right-wing, would that be me defending them? No. You can arrive at the correct conclusion for the wrong reasons. You can also follow your heart and feel that you've been nothing but good, and royally fuck things up.
For example, I gave the example elsewhere in this thread, but I believe in much tighter immigration controls, if not outright eliminating most of it for now. You may look at that and call me a racist. You would be wrong. The race is irrelevant, and it's an environmental and economic stance that led me there. Our current immigration policies allow pushing down the minimum wage, makes UBI more difficult (if not impossible) to implement, and allow countries that are outstripping their resources to simply place those people elsewhere instead of dealing with their population issues in a realistic way. This is one of many things that has also irreparably damaged the environment.
Something done for good reasons is having bad knock-on effects and we should adjust things before it gets worse. In my experience, a Centrist gets to say "right idea, horrible implementation, let's fix it" instead of just clinging to an ideal.
You're misunderstanding the economics of immigration. The economic risks are far worse without it than with it. Capitalisms core mechanisms demand growth to thrive, North Americans are not having birth fast enough to replace their own population. Immigration is absolutely mandatory if you want to retire someday. Immigrants often also create far more jobs than they "take", if they open a restaurant that provides jobs, for example, there is a net positive to the economy there. There is a higher rate of entrepreneurship in immigrant populations (immigrants are about 80 percent more likely to found a firm, compared to U.S.-born citizens). The only thing that "allows" pushing down the minimum wage is voting for conservatives who believe you should starve for being born poor.
I consider myself fairly centrist within the Canadian political sphere and I spend much more time shitting on social conservatives.
I may disagree with leftists on particular economic policies, but generally view them as good people who may be at worst a little naive. Social conservatives are just hateful.