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Say it ain’t so
(lemmy.world)
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this post was submitted on 24 Jul 2023
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I know it's a shipost and this meme is at least 15 years old. But meat, cheese, and white bread (especially the ones in the US with added sugar) were never healthy
it's about the scale at which these items are consumed - eating meat every day was pretty much unheard of until the advent of capitalism
Was it capitalism or was it refrigeration?
There are hundreds of ways to preserve meat without a fridge
Fresh or preserved (salted or dried) meat has existed as long as people have paid for them. Even ice was used for a while prior to refrigeration.
You are totally missing the point. American?
Edit Refrigeration is optimal, and we agree on that. Yet, meat was notconsumptwed by regular folks because aristocrats were the only ones who could afford it (and I recall that many of them died of a disease that comes from meat overconsumption). Regular folks ate meat only on special occasions. And driying it makes it last for months if not years (source: the dry sausages that I buy in my granfather's town, hand made by people, last for 14 months)
I think you mean gout. It was known as the disease of kings.
The point is that mass factory farming is the reason that meat is cheap now, and one of the technologies that's enabled mass factory farming is refrigeration.
If I were to be fair then my answer would be neither as I don't believe capitalism is forcing us to consume meat and there was methods to conserve meat for long periods of time before refrigeration was a thing.
I guess meat can be healthy. What certainly isn't healthy is highly processed meat like burgers, hot dogs and deep fried turkey
Science suggests that meat consumption always comes with risks e.g. of genetic mutations. So if you can meet your demand of nutrients and trace elements without meat you probably should.
Interesting. I guess you could still supplement b12
There's been a lot of back-and-forth. B12, like iron and Protein, are digested differently by the gut (with different efficiency) based on how they are consumed.
If absolutely all you care about is nutrition and nothing else, you should be eating a small amount of non-processed red and white meat (and/or seafood) on a regular basis because it is the best and healthiest source of those three things. Key term "small amount"
Interesting that you say this because the high amount of B12 in the meat people buy is because it is artificially supplemented to the animals they slaughter.
That seems like a bit of a red herring even if true. Considering I recognize your handle from elsewhere, I'm going to say "eat what you want" and move on before things get heated.
I understand that your ethics drive your decisions, but my ethics drive mine. As does my nutrition.
Actually, hell. Let me respond to the red herring statement anyway. Yes they supplement cows B12. Not so they have B12 in their meat but because cows need B12 and most of the world's soil is Cobalt-deficient. I'm such a sucker for trolls I suppose; can't let misinformation go unanswered :( I hope an upvoted post in a vegan subreddit works for response?
EDIT: Sorry. I don't really mean that YOU are a troll per se. Misinformation like this is problematic to me because I try to treat people as charitably as I possibly can. But the idea that B12 is in meat due to supplements is one of that family of malicious half-truths that simply could not have been an "honest mistake" from whoever originated it. Whoever started spreading that ABSOLUTELY knows it's a downright falsehood that can be substantiated by half-reads and mis-reads of actual facts. Like picking out a single vaccine study that doesn't rule out autism and starting... well, you lived through what it started as much as I did.
I genuinely don't think YOU knew what you were about to say was fabricated nonsense made to seem defensible from a naive googling. But somebody did.
capitalism has led to never before seen economies of scale, allowing for dirt cheap food prices never before seen in history. if we were to look at capitalism through that metric and that metric only then it would be wildly popular...
did capitalism do that, or did technologies like aircraft and refrigeration do that?
why would economies of scale not exist under a different socio-economic system?
because prior to the advent of capitalism the priorities were not on the consumer, but on the aristocracy. while the end results of free market capitalism are clearly destroying the planet, it is insanely more equitable than anything that came before it.
the economies of scale exist due to the consumer pressure, which didn't exist in other market systems.
i don't get why people are downvoting that. i'm not saying capitalism is the best thing in the world and nothing will ever be better than it. i'm saying it allowed people to eat more meat and is democratic compared to feudalism or mercantilism
Because the focus wouldn't be on profit just for profit's sake. That is the main problem with capitalism. The technologies just allowed it. Plus, technologies are not sentient, you can't blame a technology...
what socioeconomic system has existed where increased productivity was viewed as a bad thing?
e.g.:
or in other words, their invention led to it, which was the original quote I was responding to
Both. Refrigeration is what allows us to store and (I would argue more importantly) transport large amounts of meat, and is as such essential to the industry. However, Capitalism is also key to the meat industry because its lobbyists constantly push for meat subsidies, which is the main reason meat is cheap enough to be something we have every meal instead of once every couple of days.
In some circumstances you’re absolutely right. In many parts of the word, meat was either scarce or difficult to preserve. In other parts of the word, some peoples survived almost exclusively on animal products. The natives on Alaska are the first that come to mind.
Of course “meat” was a very important part of their diet, they relied heavily on organ meats for their essential vitamins and nutrients. They were significantly more humane and less wasteful than we are today.
But they were also out and about hunting that stuff for days. Unlike average Joe American who never moves more than from bed to garage and from the parking lot to his office chair in a day.
Sounds like it's joe not moving enough that's the problem
Well it is easier to eat less meat than it is to run 20km every day.
Nobody ate meat before very recently. And cheese was not your typical daily treat. Remembers it takes a long time to produce
Very recently being thousands of years ago?
Huh? Humans evolved in a hunter/gatherer lifestyle. Before the advent of farming, it was impossible to get sufficient calories for a tribe or village without hunting and bringing down big animals on a regular basis. Meat was quite literally the "meat" of human diet for most of history.
After the advent of farming, you could pack a lot of calories with things like breads, for when you didn't have meat (or in early civilization) when the rich folks got the meat.
As for cheese, it really doesn't take that long to produce unless you're talking about aged cheese... But that's a different topic (and both aged/fresh have different health benefits)
Lots of people are not from northern Europe.
Proof you only have to live 15 years to reproduce doesn't mean much for someone wanting to live 80 years.
Specially processed meat, cheese and bread. In the case of fast food these ingredients are basically "hacked" to make us crave more and consume more. These industries have "food scientists" working on exactly that.
Meat, cheese and bread in their more natural form is definitely healthy when consumed in moderation.
In principle yes, but in reality it extends much farther than that and there is a whole industry built around this.
For example, the "Subway Sandwich smell" is something desired but not easily replicable, and is a guarded secrecy that corporate is pretty shush-shush about. It not only accentuates the flavor but can get people into the shop from blocks away.
It's... Just just the smell of baked bread and yeast. Anyone that makes their own bread knows what's going on with the smells in subway and can easily replicate it. I worked at one when I was younger there's absolutely nothing nefarious or secret about it lmao. I personally think it's the yeast more than anything. It's a smell that used to be really common but is much less so these days so it sticks out. A lot of subways have the bread proofing/rising right up by the front too
Not "confessed". That's a part of what they teach in culinary school. Restaurants strive for increased flavor, and the most effective flavor profiles are sweet and umami. Sugar and butter (or meat or MSG etc).
But yeah, we definitely use more sugar (instead of, or as well as umami) in America. However, there's a lot of that going on in Japanese and Chinese (real, as in eating in China) cooking as well. When I was in China, everything that wasn't meat was shockingly carb-loaded. These weird (yummy) sweet cheese breads I swore had simple syrup slathered all over them with what tasted almost like American Cheese.
Which carcinogen?
Can't you read? "A" carcinogen. Doesn't matter which one!
/s
How profound. Clearly, you have a lot of important things to say.
Take care not to make statements so inaccurate they are effectively meaningless.
"US white bread" isn't a singular brand and most brands don't "contain[s] a carcinogen"...
You never mentioned what the carcinogen was. Probably because it would compromise your argument that "US white bread" as a whole contains it when it does not. (It's Potassium Bromate/Bromide (it's used interchangeably online sometimes), for those wondering.)
It's not limited to white bread in where it can be used. It was an additive to flour in general.
A lot of the fear mongering blogs, written by 'influencers' whose research consists of 10 seconds of Googling but not verifying a single fucking thing they write about, name brands that contain potassium bromate... but actually don't. Example: Wonder bread (https://wonderbread.ca/our_products/white-bread-675g/) Chex Mix. Looking up their ingredients list shows the item in question is not used at all. https://www.chexmix.com/products/chex-mix-traditional/
TLDR: Think before you repeat vague, meaningless shit next time.
BTW, You should look into the horrors of Dihydrogen Monoxide.
Only if you live in California!