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[-] gofsckyourself@lemmy.world 32 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago)

There's a lot of evidence that says that non-violent resistance is more often effective, and when it is effective it's more effective, than violent-based resistance.

Can't grab the source info link at the moment, but this video talks about it.

https://youtu.be/5Dk3hUNOMVk

Edit:

https://cup.columbia.edu/book/why-civil-resistance-works/9780231156820

https://www.nonviolent-conflict.org/about/civil-resistance/

[-] alcoholicorn@lemmy.ml 33 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago)

non-violent resistance is more often effective

It's only ever effective when a credible violent alternative is present.

No oppressed person in history has ever gotten their rights by appealing to the better nature of their oppressor.

Civil rights weren't won when black people asked politely and just moving everyone's hearts at how unjustly they were being treated, when MLK died, he had a 75% disapproval rating. Civil rights were won through repeated demonstrations of power and showing what would happen if their demands weren't met.

[-] gofsckyourself@lemmy.world 1 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago)

You're jumping the gun and assuming a lot.

Please read more about what I am talking about before assuming what I am saying.

https://www.nonviolent-conflict.org/about/civil-resistance/

[-] alcoholicorn@lemmy.ml 18 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago)

I couldn't get past the 4th example of "non-violence" without laughing at how wildly revisionist they are. While each of these had non-violent components, none of them would have succeeded without violence. The housing rights act wasn't passed until literally every city was on fire.

Here's a great book detailing the experiences that lead civil rights leaders to understand the importance of a real, credible threat for any "non-violent" component to be effective..

The British gave up their occupation of India after a decades-long nonviolent struggle by the Indian population led by Mohandas Gandhi.

The Danes, Norwegians and other peoples in Europe used civil resistance against Nazi invasion during World War II, raising the costs to Germany of its occupation of these nations, helping to strengthen the spirit and cohesion of their people, and saving the lives of thousands of Jews in Berlin to Copenhagen to Paris and elsewhere.

Labor movements around the world have consistently used tactics of civil resistance to win concessions for workers throughout the twentieth and twenty-first centuries.

African Americans used civil resistance in their struggle to dissolve segregation in the United States in the 1950s and 1960s.

[-] Bgugi@lemmy.world 4 points 2 months ago

Civil resistance against Nazi invasion

I'm sure the 2.7 million tonnes of bombs being dropped on them didn't exactly tip that scale much...

[-] gofsckyourself@lemmy.world 1 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago)

I couldn't get past the 4th example of "non-violence" without laughing at how wildly revisionist they are. While each of these had non-violent components, none of them would have succeeded without violence.

I believe the violent aspects of these resistances are considered and included in the overall analysis in the book I linked.

I think you may be jumping to conclusions when you see something that doesn't immediately fall into your own views. Those examples are clearly a simplified and truncated set to quickly get the point across for the purpose of an "About Us" page while there is lots of in-depth information available throughout the site.

If you have qualms with their findings or data, you'd be better off taking it up with them instead of me. I don't purport to be an expert on this subject. I am only relaying that there is plenty of credible research, data, and analysis that shows that non-violent resistance is effective.

Edit

Here you can see how and why the book defines these. The book and its author is a major resource for the website.

https://www.ericachenoweth.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/07/WCRW-Appendix.pdf

[-] Lumisal@lemmy.world 4 points 2 months ago

Wait, are you using multiple accounts to support your argument? The OP comment is under a different username but you just responded to that person as if you made that initial content presenting the data.

And reminder that Lemmy shows edit history.

[-] gofsckyourself@lemmy.world 2 points 2 months ago

Are you talking about enkers's comment? I saw their response, which was clearly meant for me and responded. Then they deleted that comment and moved it to where they intended to put it, so I did the same.

https://sh.itjust.works/comment/15571731

[-] Lumisal@lemmy.world 2 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago)

No, the op comment presenting the data. The username just changed right now to match yours.

[-] gofsckyourself@lemmy.world 1 points 2 months ago

I'm very confused about what you're claiming. Are you saying I somehow edited a comment's user?

Regardless, I'm not using multiple accounts to... argue with myself?

If a comment author changed username, I would be dubious of the platform you're using to view this thread. Could be an issue with an app you're using.

[-] Enkers@sh.itjust.works 1 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago)

Yeah, sorry 'bout that; that was my bad. I didn't mention it since you figured out my intent. Looks like me moving my comment might have led to some confused lemmings, though.

[-] Not_mikey@slrpnk.net 14 points 2 months ago

A few questions for the study:

  1. What's the data source? If they're just doing news reports and traditional history that can hide a lot of failed non-violent protests. A non violent protest, especially one against the medias interests, is way less likely to show up in the historical record then a violent insurrection. Only the successful movements like the civil rights movement will get mentioned on the non-violent side whereas every insurrection or riot, successful or not, is captured in the historical record.

  2. What's the breakdown by method? It seems they're including strikes in this which has a very high success rate and high occurrence, so much so it could drown out all the failed protests.

[-] Enkers@sh.itjust.works 7 points 2 months ago

1900-2006? This past century has literally been humanity's most transformative ever, and this chart is just glomming all the data together. We'd need to see trends of how these have changed over time to get a realistic picture.

[-] gofsckyourself@lemmy.world 5 points 2 months ago

Well, when you only look at that one image alone and not any of the rest of the information and studies that accompany it, I can see why you'd make that hasty judgement.

Maybe go read more of the vast amounts of information available on it: https://www.nonviolent-conflict.org/about/civil-resistance/

[-] Enkers@sh.itjust.works 11 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago)

That's the exact same link I already read. Did you mean to send me something else? There was a link titled "award-winning research" to a $27 book. I wasn't able to find any further data sources beyond the provided anecdotes. Did I miss something?

(Minor edit for clarity.)

[-] gofsckyourself@lemmy.world 3 points 2 months ago

"anecdotes"? Yes, you have clearly missed a lot. There's lots available and easy to find. I don't think you need me to hold your hand.

Here's a full dataset if you want: https://dataverse.harvard.edu/dataset.xhtml?persistentId=doi:10.7910/DVN/MHOXDV

[-] Enkers@sh.itjust.works 8 points 2 months ago

I mean, you literally said:

the rest of the information and studies that accompany it,

(Emphasis mine.)

I only saw only one study referenced, which seems to be a book, not an academic paper.

In any case, I appreciate the data sources. I'll take a look.

[-] gofsckyourself@lemmy.world 3 points 2 months ago

The book itself is based on multiple studies. Here is the first part of the second paragraph for the book's description:

Combining statistical analysis with case studies of specific countries and territories [...]

The website has some other studies referenced and such. It kinda seems that you barely opened either of the links.

[-] Enkers@sh.itjust.works 6 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago)

Ok, well I don't have the book, or links to the studies it's based on, so that's not particularly helpful.

I throughly scanned the page for data sources and scholarly papers, and also read some of the major concepts and provided examples. I did not see any further studies or data linked in either of the pages you linked to yourself, but if I did miss something, please feel free to point it out.

Once again, thank you for providing the source data you already did. It's a fairly complicated dataset, so it'll take some effort to grok.

this post was submitted on 15 Dec 2024
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