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this post was submitted on 31 Oct 2024
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Do you believe everything Trump says? Is he somehow that one politician that’s going to keep his promises no matter how hard they are to implement? Do you believe everything Harris says?
I’m Polish so I have a good estimate of how this is going to go. Trump is copying Orban / Kaczyński. Dems are copying Tusk who is seen as one to stop illiberal democracy in EU.
If Dems lose they will say every single thing Trump does is an attack on democracy, even if there are rare instances of a broken clock is right twice a day. Ultimately this will erode trust in politics and public institutions even more. Then once Dems are back at the wheel they will want to remain in power so some of the bad things Trump did but people found okay will suddenly be okay. Been there, done that.
When someone walks up to you with a gun pointed at your head threatening to end your life. Do you ignore them and carry on as if nothing is happening?
Doesnt matter if they have no intention of causing harm, the threat needs to be treated as it were real because it absolutely can be real.
Nobody is pointing a gun at your head, you’re using an unnecessary and unproductive hyperbole. This kind of escalation is what’s going to erode remaining usefulness of political debate.
I really hate to be the bearer of bad news. I don’t want any of this to happen. I hope others will learn from our mistakes.
The same ccouldve been said for 1933 Germany. There were plenty of people then saying "he doesn't really mean it. He's just trying to rile up the masses for votes". 6 years later they were rolling tanks through your country.
Dont ever be compilict to someone making threats.
Or, maybe, it’s a bit of an overreaction and you don’t live in the ascent of new Nazi Germany but because you’re so hysterical now nobody is going to treat you seriously when actual bad things happen. Also been there, done that. I’m saying this with your best interest in mind because we already made those mistakes.
Unfortunately US might be fucked due to two party system but the actual solution to your troubles is honest debate. Try to listen to what Trump voters are afraid of. Some of their concerns are probably valid but they have been misled by shrewd politicians. They won’t regain trust by treating them like children. Or nazis.
You cant debate with bigots.
Not every Trump voter is a bigot, I’m certain of that. People have different problems in their life and have to be pragmatic in how they use their voting power. Some have different priorities, some have been misled. What you’re doing is only polarising society and because nobody wants to be wrong it only leads to entrenching in positions which those people might not have held before.
No. Every single trump voter is a bigot. Even if they are the type that votes purely becsuse of the R beside his name. They are compilict.
Trump is extremely vocal about his bigotry and if that doesnt convince you he's not a good leader, then you are in fact a bigot.
You’re doing more harm than good with this attitude but at least you have achieved a moral victory, right? We did that too.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradox_of_tolerance
Yeah, tell me how well applying this to anyone voting for Trump goes in a couple of years. If you have a moral high ground but didn’t achieve anything then is it something you’re interested in?
ok. enlightment how to have a civil debate with people that wants to blame all their problems on people purely based on their birth characteristics?
For starters, by not assuming every single one of them blames all their problems on people purely based on their birth characteristics. Treat them with no prejudice. You’re likely prejudiced against lower class people and not even realise it. Listen to what they have to say and see what led them to distrust public institutions, what are their troubles and priorities.
I get their distrust. I dont get why they would put their trust in a person that is very much the embodiment of the reason for the distrust.
Why do you say i have prejudice against lower class? Most the ones i know thag support him are higher class than me.
Statistically this is not a representative group.
I like the part youre assuming that what class i belong to.
Have you considered being out of touch then?
Probably. I cant fathom why anyone rational sees trump being the solution to their problems even if he was the solution, it would be the demise of millions of americans.
So, not much is changing then but you assumed history can only move forward. We’ve reached a point where this belief is pretty much a modern secular religion - nobody guaranteed it would be so. This religion even has prophets like Francis Fukuyama who I blame for popularising it.
It’s likely we will be set back again many times and there’s no guarantee that the end result will be satisfying. The best thing we can do for now is to figure out why those things happen in the first place without attributing blame. The future needs to include everyone, even the bigots. My guess most of the bigots wouldn’t be bigots if they had higher participation in profits that our societies generate. This is because politicians funnel those into the pockets of various oligarchs. Neither Republicans or Dems will fix that unfortunately.
Bigots are created from fear and tribalism. The oligarches love useing those innate fears and stoke the fire shifting the blame from them to the "others". They convince people they once day can be an "elite" too if they try hard enough, but its the "others" that holds them down.
How does one go about convincing people their problems start from the top? That people like trump is the very essence of their problem? Obviously dems only fight to maintain a status quo and i can understand why people dont turn to them. I can see how trump won in 2016. But after 4 years of a do nothing adminstration, things getting worse... and him quadruple down on his rethorics... how can anyone not see the obvious that he has nothing good to offer.
It’s good that you recognise tribalism as a core issue although you need to acknowledge that you can be victim of that too. You’re trying to start from the top because that looks like it’s have biggest impact but the actual change needs to start at the bottom. This is something we can do but it’ll be much more work than waiting for someone to do that for us. I realise that all of us are so used to slacktivism by now that it sounds like an insurmountable task but there’s no other way. First step is to stop contributing to the problem so here I am trying to explain why current approach won’t work.
No... i said the top is convincing the bottom that they arent the problem and create divisions within the same classes; so the bottom fights amoung themselves. How is one to convince people they are fighting themselves and they need to focus their enegry at the real problem? Its difficult to have a rational conversation when when many stomp their feet refusing to belive the truth and rather prefer commiting crimes against humanity than addressing the real problems.
That feet stomping and refusing to acknowledge reality is a symptom, not the root issue. People don’t feel like they have a real choice so as a response to this overwhelming world they start to treat it like a football match. You support your team no matter what, right?
"I'm going to shoot you in the face" - Man who can't stop lying if their life depended on it.
"I don't believe you" - Last words of person shot in face.
shocked pikachu face
Maybe lets not risk it.
Yeah, I was shot by Trump to death twice yesterday. Try to get down go actual issues rather than whatever it is that you’re doing.