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Assuming the title to be accurate, what is a good way for the working class (90%+ of all humans) to save and succeed in this current environment?

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[-] davel@lemmy.ml 63 points 3 months ago

Fiat doesn’t work on a finite planet.

Citations needed.

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[-] Nemo@midwest.social 53 points 3 months ago

Why would I assume the title is accurate? I've never heard this criticism of fiat currency before, since the whole point is that it doesn't rely on on scarcity but on the stability of the issuing body. Can you explain, or is that outside the scope of this thread?

[-] aviation_hydrated@infosec.pub 5 points 3 months ago

The issue is those closer to the money printer get the biggest rewards (according to the US Fed's description of their stakeholders) so as they increase their supply of currency they can accumulate more goods, outpacing the rest of the classes which have to suffer through inflation, which debases their money, keeps wages low and goods prices increase

In an evenly distributed and fully observable currency supply which can rise and lower as needed, there is no inherent issue with fiat currencies as long as the issuing party is reputable and wages increase at the same pace (up or down) with all prices

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[-] xantoxis@lemmy.world 33 points 3 months ago

The objection about a "finite planet" is about capitalism, not currency. A 100% communist system can still have fiat currency and function perfectly well, the two aren't even related.

It's capitalism you don't like, not money.

[-] Prunebutt@slrpnk.net 6 points 3 months ago* (last edited 3 months ago)

Communism: A classless, moneyless society, based on the principle of "to each according to their needs, from each according to their ability".

[-] davel@lemmy.ml 6 points 3 months ago* (last edited 3 months ago)

I think you’re conflating communism and socialism a bit.

Communism is a classless society where it is “from each according to their ability to each according to their needs”. Moneyless is often mentioned as well, but I don’t think it’s strictly necessary.

Socialism is a transitional stage on the way to communism, where the working class controls the state (having taken it from the capitalist class’ control), and it is usually described as “from each according to their ability to each according to their labor,” though when they say that I don’t think they really mean that those who can’t perform labor should simply starve.

[-] testfactor@lemmy.world 5 points 3 months ago

I don't understand why you think that guy was conflating communism and socialism. He claimed communism is moneyless, and in your response you said "neither is moneyless." What's being conflated?

And it's worth noting that most definitions include, if not expressly the word "moneyless," clauses about all property being held in common. And if there is no property, then there is equally no money, by definition (as money is simply a system for the valuation and exchange of property).

[-] davel@lemmy.ml 6 points 3 months ago

Yeah you’re right. Sorry, @Prunebutt@slrpnk.net!

I didn’t say that neither is moneyless, only that I don’t think it’s strictly necessary for a society to be moneyless in order to be considered communist.

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[-] nickhammes@lemmy.world 2 points 3 months ago

It's a question of the most stable thing to use to mediate value for exchange of goods and services, right? Fiat currency is just the choice of "the state" as a stabilizing force. Certainly it's better than trusting the scarcity of rare metals, but eventually "just trust the state" will become a problem, and we'll need to think about rebasing currencies. In theory, computational complexity isn't a bad choice, but nobody has come up with a solution that actually functions well as a currency.

But I agree, the finite planet has nothing to do with any failings of fiat currencies, and only makes sense as a failing of the "number must go up" mentality endemic to capitalism.

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[-] Ziggurat@sh.itjust.works 26 points 3 months ago

what is a good way for the working class (90%+ of all humans) to save

Gonna sound like a dangerous lemmy communist, but vote for parties who want to raise wages and join Union to defend your rights. The main problem is that most working class struggle to finish the month without a negative bank account, once it's solved, saving become possible again

[-] rockmeat@feddit.org 8 points 3 months ago

You sound like a decent social-democrat to me

[-] aviation_hydrated@infosec.pub 3 points 3 months ago

But if their savings is in fiat, and its stated goal is loose value 2-3% annually, then the working class could never retire unless they make every economic investment choice correctly their entire life to have beaten inflation

[-] anindefinitearticle@sh.itjust.works 5 points 3 months ago* (last edited 3 months ago)

Which isn’t always plausible to do in a country lacking social safety net, public healthcare, etc.

[-] aviation_hydrated@infosec.pub 3 points 3 months ago

Yeah, hence why I'm looking for ideas

[-] KeepFlying@lemmy.world 23 points 3 months ago

Finding pockets of self sufficiency, or at least ways to prevent falling down to the bottom.

Universal basic income helps this by making sure everyone has at least enough to live on.

Homesteading and community gardens help this by making sure you at least have some basic amount of food available to you.

Building walkable cities helps.this by allowing you to avoid or reduce the expenses of a car.

Building resilient cities that leverage adaptive reuse help this by making it cheaper to start new small community businesses that keep money local.

The solutions aren't in the system of money we choose, it's in building small sustainable ways to provide for basic needs, even in a small way.

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[-] Hugh_Jeggs@lemm.ee 20 points 3 months ago

I can confirm, I've had two Fiats and neither worked properly

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[-] Shialac@lemmy.world 20 points 3 months ago
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[-] dessalines@lemmy.ml 19 points 3 months ago

Fiat can work fine on a finite planet, most money doesn't even take up physical space anymore, just bits in an account ledger database. Ideally in the future governments will make sure their currency is backed or based on labor time, and nothing is technologically preventing that, nor is crypto-currency required for it.

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[-] bobr@lemmy.libertarianfellowship.org 13 points 3 months ago

What makes you think that "crypto has failed on it's goals"?

[-] richieadler@lemmy.myserv.one 29 points 3 months ago

That's a good question, because as a scam it has worked wonderfully.

[-] usernamesAreTricky@lemmy.ml 24 points 3 months ago* (last edited 3 months ago)

Not OP, but as someone who was at one point excited by the potential of crypto, the ecosystem has moved more and more towards what it claimed to stand against initially

It's supposed to be decentralized, but things like mining pools have lead to heavy amounts of centralization in block production. If we look at Bitcoin, for an example, we see that over 51% of block production is controlled by just two mining pools. That's not limited to just Proof of Work mining either. Proof of stake sees centralization in staking pools as well. That's only just looking at one aspect of the network

It has also not really been seen as a currency. People's view of it as an "investment" which have the opposite qualities you really want to see. People are encouraged to hold it and never let go, meaning they won't want to spend it which is adverse to its use as a currency. This has also lead to it being incorporated and dominated by the very financial systems it was initially supposed to move away from

I don't want to type out an essay, but I could keep going on in other ways that's not really lived up to its promises.

Well, this is a fair criticism... of Bitcoin :)

It's supposed to be decentralized, but things like mining pools have lead to heavy amounts of centralization in block production. If we look at Bitcoin, for an example, we see that over 51% of block production is controlled by just two mining pools. That's not limited to just Proof of Work mining either. Proof of stake sees centralization in staking pools as well. That's only just looking at one aspect of the network

Centralization of mining pools (and mining in general) is indeed a serious problem. In Monero we now have p2pool which is totally decentralized. For now it's just shy of having 10% of total hash power, so there is a long road ahead, but we are moving there. ASIC resistant RandomX also helps to ensure mining decentralization.

It has also not really been seen as a currency. People's view of it as an "investment" which have the opposite qualities you really want to see. People are encouraged to hold it and never let go, meaning they won't want to spend it which is adverse to its use as a currency. This has also lead to it being incorporated and dominated by the very financial systems it was initially supposed to move away from

I don't think this applies to Monero, which is more or less the only currency used in DNMs.

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[-] finley@lemm.ee 9 points 3 months ago

Socialism. The problem here isn’t with currency, it’s with capitalism.

[-] Mubelotix@jlai.lu 4 points 3 months ago

I have socialism at home and fiat is still an issue

[-] davel@lemmy.ml 5 points 3 months ago* (last edited 3 months ago)

Do you have socialism at home? Because if you’re in Europe, no, you don’t. Social safety nets under capitalism is not the same thing as abolishing private ownership of the means of production.

Do you have fiat money at home? Because if you’re in the Eurozone, no, you really don’t, because you don’t have monetary sovereignty. What you have is a cartel of European private banks running the show, as Yanis Varoufakis and Michael Hudson will tell you. Europe’s Transition From Social Democracy to Oligarchy

[-] Skua@kbin.earth 3 points 3 months ago

How is a lack of national monetary sovereignty relevant to whether or not a currency is a fiat currency? The euro isn't backed by anything, it's as much a fiat currency as any other.

[-] davel@lemmy.ml 2 points 3 months ago

It is fiat money, it’s just that it’s not theirs, meaning their country’s government. It’s the unelected, undemocratic private bank cartel that has control of it.

[-] Skua@kbin.earth 4 points 3 months ago* (last edited 3 months ago)

Most central banks are run by unelected civil servants appointed by the head of government or a similar position/body. By this logic, the US dollar, Japanese yen, Chinese renminbi, and British pound equally do not belong to those countries. The ECB is just subject to the heads of 27 governments instead of one.

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[-] AnnaFrankfurter@lemmy.ml 8 points 3 months ago

Stockpile canned beans they will become the most valuable currency once the WW3 starts.

#NotAFinancialAdvice

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[-] Cube6392@beehaw.org 7 points 3 months ago

Realize that all forms of currency are ultimately a grift to allow a class of violent weirdos to claim ownership over the fruits of our labor and that we could actually just share things with each other without commerce

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[-] fubarx@lemmy.ml 6 points 3 months ago
[-] MNByChoice@midwest.social 6 points 3 months ago

Barter. Learn a tradable skill. Build a group of friends.

But also save money.

[-] aviation_hydrated@infosec.pub 2 points 3 months ago

Good advice, thank you for sharing

[-] Carrolade@lemmy.world 5 points 3 months ago

Buy jewelry, gold and silver coins, gemstones, rolls of silk, fine pelts, expensive spices like vanilla beans (avoid saffron though, its perishable), fine porcelains and maybe a rare painting or two. Put it all in a big wooden chest with a big iron padlock on it, and bury it in your backyard. Then draw some sort of cryptic map to it in case you die unexpectedly, or forget where your backyard is or something.

[-] Aceticon@lemmy.world 2 points 3 months ago* (last edited 3 months ago)

Also traps, lots of traps - something fancy like blowpipes shooting darts when an intruder steps on the wrong stone of a floor puzzle, maybe even a large an perfectly spherical stone that rolls towards intruders if the weight of your chest is altered.

There's a series of documentaries about such things were a professor of Archeology - a Dr. Jones, if I'm not mistaken - illustrates their workings.

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[-] Prunebutt@slrpnk.net 3 points 3 months ago

Social revolution is the best retirement plan.

[-] geneva_convenience@lemmy.ml 3 points 3 months ago
[-] Omodi@lemmy.world 13 points 3 months ago
[-] hglman@lemmy.ml 2 points 3 months ago
[-] rockmeat@feddit.org 4 points 3 months ago

yeah, it succeeded in scamming a lot of people for their money

[-] dmegatool@lemmy.ca 2 points 3 months ago* (last edited 3 months ago)

BTC 130% up last 365 days. 10% up last 30 days

But seriously if everybody would use crypto, the up and downs wouldn't matter. The value/pourcentage is only VS Fiat.

[-] bionicjoey@lemmy.ca 7 points 3 months ago

Newsflash: currencies shouldn't wildly fluctuate in value. The fact that people use it like a stock market investment, (and an idiotic one at that, since there is no underlying business), is exactly why it has failed to be a currency.

[-] dmegatool@lemmy.ca 2 points 3 months ago

It fluctuate vs the Fiat value, not with itsleft. The supply of BTC is determined, not like the printing machines we got now.

[-] bionicjoey@lemmy.ca 3 points 3 months ago

Nothing's value fluctuates with itself. Money supply is controlled through interest rates in modern economies because it works better than directly controlling the money supply. Your comment betrays an unsurprising lack of understanding of the most basic concepts of economics. You're just parroting some talking points you've heard from techbros.

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[-] NomenCumLitteris@lemmy.ml 2 points 3 months ago

Gold and silver.

[-] Wirlocke 2 points 3 months ago

As an aside, I've often wondered what would happen if everything was automatically adjusted for inflation.

So like cost of living inflates, but then income is adjusted and bank accounts are modified to be their true value before inflation.

Would this patch things up to be effectively 0 inflation? or (more likely) would this cause an absurd runaway effect?

[-] nitefox@sh.itjust.works 4 points 3 months ago

That it would spiral into more inflation, making your money worthless. Which is exactly what happened in Italy with the Lira

[-] aviation_hydrated@infosec.pub 3 points 3 months ago

The issue here is we actually don't know how much inflation there is because we can't measure the quantity of fiat, which is why there are dozens of "inflation measures" which just study different baskets

But yeah, if inflation could be measured correctly and everything automatically updated (wages, costs, etc) then I'm not seeing an issue logically. But at that point it's just a fixed supply of money and prices adjust up and down, irregardless of currency type. That sound reasonable?

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this post was submitted on 27 Jul 2024
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