"Zionists are troubled by people complaining about them genociding people, and apparently there something called the 'freedom of speech'"
That headline feels very.... very.... something.
I can personally confirm that Zionists get pissed when you call them out (im Jewish).
The problem of anti Zionism is that those of us who oppose apartheid ethnostates regularly have to stay alert less those who just hate Jews claim to be with us
You can lay that problem at the feet of those that label any criticism of israel's actions anti zionist. By grouping everyone together they force that situation on themselves.
Although, some racists love Israel. Pro-Israel groups pay Stephen Yaxley-Lennon, a notorious racist in England, and while he hates immigrants (despite being the descendants of Irish immigrants) he specifically supports Israel.
Any idea behind ethnostates invariably feel dangerously fascist.
"This land only welcomes X and anyone who isn't X should leave" - where X can be whites, blacks, jews, latins, arabs, japanese, whatever. Ethnic purity is stupid.
Agreed. Ethnostates are based on racial classifications, and the preference of one (or one group) of them above others.
The only way to equate Israel with the Jewish Religion is to be a Racist - it requires one to believe that "Jews are all the same" hence they are all represented by Israel. This is expecially Racist given that there are many Jews who are openly critical of Israel, its actions and even its existence - it doesn't get much more obviously Racist than when non-Jews claim to know better about Jewishness and who represents All Jews than actual people who are Jews.
This is how you spot the Racists: not just the obvious ones but also the kind that playacts as anti-Racist whilst in practice, as I pointed out, holding extremelly prejudiced views and in practice viewing, judging and treating other human beings as "etnic group members" rather than people - they'll tell you all about what people of other etnicities are like and how you should support or not people based entirelly on the ethnicity they were born into.
In my personal experience Britain is riddled with Racist thinking, but a lot of it was disguised as "support of 'good' races" (only they carefully avoided the word "race"), except when it came to Muslims since discrimination against them has long been treated as acceptable.
This is expecially Racist given that there are many Jews who are openly critical of Israel, its actions and even its existence
Indeed. Judaism is very clearly not monolithic, perhaps particularly because rabbis have the freedom to think critically.
This isnt anti zionism though. This is just anti genocide or simply humanism. Anti zionism is most likely calling for an other genocide or you better come with a solid plan to relocate millions of israelian that will not move.
No, that isn't anti-zionism. Calling for the end of an ethnostate does not require the expulsion, relocation, or death of folks who are currently citizens of that state.
Bro they have one of the strongest military on earth and are properly radicalized. How do you think they are going to take it ?is everyone a lunatic there or just completely naive ?
Ya remember that genocide after the apartheid South African state fell and was transformed into a state for everyone? That's why you don't see any South Africans nowadays. And they certainly never clog up my news, technology, and politics feeds with their inane opinions and dumb-looking trucks...
Exactly this, same with the Good Friday accords. There's always a political solution available, and if it's actually acceptable to both sides, they won't feel they need to resort to terrorism.
If you gave Palestinians an actually viable country, they'd accept that.
And if there is still (now domestic) terrorism you handle it like a normal country and not by bombing everything to ashes.
I generally agree, but we should remember that there are always going to be a small number of fringe elements in any large population. Even the perfect mostly peaceful transition to a two-state solution would still involve some violence from various militants, because that's what some people (ideally not too many people) out there want, and they're always going to want it.
That's an awful lot of words to say "I don't know what Zionism is"
Anti-zionism isn't opposition to Israel or Israelis existing. It's opposition to Israel existing as a colonial apartheid ethnostate that oppresses everyone not of the favored ethnicity and religion.
Did you check the first reference to the article you linked. There is a less modern , more widely used prior definition that just explain what zionism is. Zionism is just thinking israel as a state can exist. If you oppose the existance of a state with one of the strongest military in the world , chance is you might have to fight some people. Maybe you guys dont agree on the same definition of zionism. Antisemitism seems to do that. I cant care less about israel existing or not , or is it legitimate. Im just saying they arnt going to agree to leave their country. You guys are delusionnal.
And yes . By EVERY DEFINITION, really every, antizionnism oppose the state of israelnas a concept. Two state solution still imply zionism. You guys discovered this conflict last years and still need some catch up.
Zionism is just thinking israel as a state can exist
Nope. That's what AIPAC, ADL, and other de facto Israeli government agencies want people to think so they can tar everyone who's against the genocidal apartheid state as the genocidal ones.
If you oppose the existance of a state
I specifically said that that's not what anti-zionism is. Are you just going to ignore everything I tell you that doesn't fit your Hasbara gaslighting narrative?
Maybe you guys dont agree on the same definition of zionism.
Because your definition is a gross oversimplification used for propaganda purposes and doesn't describe what we're against.
Antisemitism seems to do that
And there we go with the "being against the actions of the state of Israel must mean you hate all Jewish people" bullshit.
You know what's ACTUALLY antisemitic? Conflating all Jewish people with a fascist apartheid regime that many if not most Jewish people don't approve of, let alone consider themselves represented by it.
I'm just saying they arnt going to agree to leave their country
Nobody is asking them to. Please stow your army of strawmen.
You guys are delusionnal
This you?
By EVERY DEFINITION, really every, antizionnism oppose the state of israelnas a concept.
That's just flat out false. Zionism is a political ideology, not a country.
You might as well say that republicanism (in the original definition of "against monarchy") is opposition to the states of England, Denmark, and Spain existing.
You guys discovered this conflict last years and still need some catch up.
Bitch, please. I've been arguing for the human rights of Palestinians and against the atrocities of the fascist apartheid regime since before the Oslo Accords. I bet you weren't even alive back then, based on the level of maturity you're displaying.
Point by point argument only make sense if you bring some evidence to your claim. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Zionism
The definition seems to make different sense depending who read it. It appear that we cant even come to an agreement about the foundation of our argument. I dont advocate for an israel state , i dont think it was particulary fair as a decision , i would be antizionnist by this definition. But ultimately i dont care enough to choose a side because i heard about this conflict from my early childhood and it never trully changed.
But my point is more anti zionnism is by definition , originaly, historicaly and etymologicaly ; anti israel. And if you want a two state solution you accept the existense of a zionist state. So you cant be anti zionnist and for a two state solution. As for your age and your militantism you cant bullshit anyone. There is no way someone so deep into this modern rhetoric would have an history of following this conflict. 15 years ago anti zionnist was asking for the end of israel and it was possible to still make a difference with antisemitism. Even though it was more of a conceptual stance as everyone agreed about the implication. Now the separation is way more blurry with modern polarization of opinion.
I still dont see what is the possible outcome of this conflict if we start reconsidering the existence of israel as an ethnostate. You are basically cornering ideological radicalized zealot into a total war solution. They have a lot of power and will use it to serve their ideology. And it isnt even a two state solution. You seems to think this world will somve this issue peacefully when both side are radicalized beyond any turning point.
Point by point argument only make sense if..
Point by point is an aid to us both: it makes it clear exactly what I'm talking about when and it's also a way for me to organize my thoughts rather than try to think of everything simultaneously.
zionnism is by definition , originaly, historicaly and etymologicaly ; anti israel
Nope. You can repeat it all you want, it still won't be true.
And if you want a two state solution you accept the existense of a zionist state
A two state solution wouldn't work since Israel won't be stopped by national borders. See for example the current invasion of Lebanon.
The only way there's going to be any hope of peace is one state with equal rights and safety for all.
Dismantling the current Israeli and Gazan governments and prosecuting their leaders for war crimes would be necessary to achieve that.
As would a weapons embargo against the fascist Israeli government.
As for your age and your militantism you cant bullshit anyone. There is no way someone so deep into this modern rhetoric would have an history of following this conflict
I'm 41 and a pacifist. I keep up with the times (including the most accurate descriptive terms and turns of phrase). I also haven't been eating Hasbara for breakfast every day of my life.
I'm guessing neither is the case with you, based on your repetition of stale talking points that used to do the trick back when all dissent was suppressed but don't now.
15 years ago anti zionnist was asking for the end of israel and it was possible to still make a difference with antisemitism
The end of Israeli oppression is not the same thing as the end of Israeli existence. Much as Zionist propagandists like to pretend so, Israel can exist without being an oppressive ethnostate.
It's the oppression including the violent displacement that's the problem, not the mere existence of the country. Always has been. And that's never been possible to confuse for antisemitism unless you're brainwashed by Hasbara gaslighting.
Now the separation is way more blurry with modern polarization of opinion.
No. You're seeing more pushback and people voicing vehement opposition to atrocities and are confusing well-founded anger with bigoted hatred. That's a YOU problem.
I still dont see what is the possible outcome of this conflict if we start reconsidering the existence of israel as an ethnostate
Same as with Apartheid South Africa: before the inherently oppressive current system is replaced, peace isn't possible.
Like South Africa, Israel will continue to exist, but in a more just and equitable version.
You are basically cornering ideological radicalized zealot into a total war solution
Nope. Apartheid South Africa was overthrown by a combination of international and domestic pressure without anything resembling a "total war solution" and so can the fascist apartheid regime of Israel.
They have a lot of power
Most of which is granted to them by the West im the form of weapons, financial aid, and political cover. Take that away, make Israel a pariah state like SA was, and suddenly it's much more difficult to keep up the worst campaign of atrocities the world has seen in this century.
You seems to think this world will somve this issue peacefully
We've done it before in my lifetime and we can do it again.
both side are radicalized beyond any turning point.
Guess what? War criminals being deposed and put on trial tends to go some way towards calming things down.
Palestinians are radicalized by the Israeli government slaughtering and displacing all their friends and relatives while those who survive don't even get to be citizens of the country that controls their fate, let alone have equal rights.
Unless you have anything else add beyond more repetitions of falsehoods and denials of reality, we're done here.
Anti genocide became inherently anti zionism when zionists decided that genocide would be their tool to reclaim the holy land.
Anti zionism is most likely calling for an other genocide
Thanks for the strawman, it's getting cold so I can use it for fuel.
Two Jewish students complained about a 2019 lecture by Miller in which he identified Zionism as one of the five pillars of Islamophobia, the panel heard. The Community Security Trust, which campaigns against antisemitism, said Miller’s remarks were a “disgraceful slur”.
Imagine getting offended by facts.
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