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this post was submitted on 06 Sep 2023
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Showerthoughts
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I don't even think it should be labeled as a disorder. Or at least people should be more aware of what a disorder means. It doesn't necessarily mean there is anything wrong with the person. The behavior just happens to not be suitable for the particular environment they are in and causes difficulties. If you change environments to one that allows that behavior to no longer be a problem then they no longer have a disorder.
You clearly don’t understand ADHD.
This is how a mental disorder is medically defined. What are you suggesting?
That you don’t understand ADHD.
You don't understand. It's only a mental disorder because we have built environments for people that are not suitable for everybody. It's possible that there may not exist an environment that makes any mental disorder not be a problem, but ADD and ADHD in my opinion is not one of them. Many countries don't recognize these as a mental disorders because they haven't built a society that causes problems for people with ADD or ADHD.
As someone with ADD I find it a bit ridiculous that because I can't pay absolute attention on something I'm uninterested in while stuck in a room unable to leave that I have a mental disorder. The problem doesn't lie with me, but with the environment I am in. But alas, that is just how a mental order is defined.
So much to unpick here, and so little inclination to bother. Like many with ADHD, I’m sick of dealing with the constant disinformation and toxic positivity that surrounds this condition - and which you’re contributing to.
If you think ADHD is about attention, then you really still don’t get it. Go and watch Dr Russell Barkley’s videos on YouTube. There’s a seminar about 2.5 hours long that is well worth the time.
I might need some more education apparently, so the seminar you're talking about is this one ?
https://piped.video/watch?v=YSfCdBBqNXY?si=Wpr0koBLjoV6CF_o
Environmental factors can certainly exacerbate mental disorders like ADHD, but they are not the sole cause. Just because there are countries that don't recognize mental disorders as well as others just means they are not up to snuff.
What you described in your second paragraph is just being bored. Not being able to focus on uninteresting topics in a poor environment is standard for most people.
I'm going to support what the person you responded to said, you don't know what ADHD is.
Environmental factors? Cause? You have completely misunderstood. This is just a discussion of semantics.
Cool. Cool cool cool.
As someone with ADHD, I cannot regulate my attention to things I do care about or things I don't care about. I struggle daily with doing basic tasks. I can't maintain hobbies and have difficulty with maintaining a relationship. Finances and budgets are impacted by difficulty with regulating impulses. My working memory causes me to forget things and people quite frequently. Tasks which are not emergencies take a monumental amount of effort to begin. This impacts my work and my income.
Because you might have a specific type of ADD and are relatively well functioning doesn't mean that others don't struggle with it's symptoms regularly.
100%
It more sounds that the poster has either extremely mild ADHD or a self-diagnosis, but I’m also guessing and have no medical training.
I experience exactly the same as you. Maintaining anything, be it a habit, relationship, hobby, promise or pretty much anything else is frustratingly hard.
My lack of impulse control has gotten me in some major trouble and decisions I made there were absolutely impacted by my adhd and lack of dopamine.
If it affects day to day life and as such is absolutely a disorder. For the longest time I maintained that it didn’t affect me, but the more and more I understand about how we function differently to NTs the more I realize that I have so many coping mechanisms that I manage through the day I don’t even think about them anymore.
They’re as simple as setting 2 alarms in the morning because I need the inertia of being grumpy about waking up the second time to get out of bed, or having microwaveable meals in the freezer at all times, but I’d fall apart without them.
They're saying society is set up and engrained in a way where the best solutions for you and I are only as good as torturing ourselves with alarms and keeping a steady supply of frozen convenience fees.
They're saying it's only a "disorder" in a negative sense because society has failed to understand that the way things "work" and the traditional ways heavily favor the A-type extroverted morning people (sociopaths) who cannot comprehend how their routines might not be universal. Everyone is forced to live with it regardless because banking hours and business meetings exist for them.
You're complaining about the very thing he's saying is forcing you to be "disordered"
So I very fundamentally disagree with that.
There are no environmental changes to be made to remind myself to eat at least once a day, because if I don’t I’ll go days without eating and nearly collapse by the end.
I’m not torturing myself with alarms, rather I’m using the tools I have to make my life liveable. I keep the convenience foods because when it’s been a week since I’ve eaten I can’t get the energy together to go and get something, and can’t wait for something to come to me. It’s about myself making my life easier, rather than forcing my way around barriers setup by society.
ADHD is a disorder because it impacts our ability to produce dopamine. A chemical deficiency causes simple, normal tasks to not feel rewarding. That’s why you see so many people with ADHD doing everything they can to get some kind of dopamine hit. NTs don’t have this issue. They produce dopamine (in smaller quantities) for smaller tasks. There’s a chemical reward for finishing a task. With ADHD there is no dopamine for those small tasks, so we struggle to self-motivate, as we know there’s no payoff at the end.
Firstly, I have ADHD, and have lived with it for 40 years.
You're looking at it on a different scale than they are. You are looking internally, while they are talking about external social pressures which force you to accept that there is no alternative to trying to be the triangle in the square hole (which conveniently comes with extra fees and stress.) Our inability to regulate dopamine is an issue exacerbated by the environment we exist within. The simple short is we're fucking bored, we need a partner/hypeman/twin to bypass chemical shortcomings, and NTs can't relate so they don't care enough to make changes, which is unfortunate because they're in charge, usually.
You are not an island. There absolutely are environmental changes to be made. A good start would be a supportive partner who understands and doesn't judge you for your inability to make the brain chemicals happen as expected. This means they're not hounding you over things they find more urgent than you do, they're not holding you to unrealistic expectations, and maybe they don't even mind cooking for you.
That is still hindered by the social connotation of being "disordered" making everything more difficult because you're different. Going out on a limb and assuming relationships have been difficult for you as well? Same root problem, that still isn't you or ADHD but other people's perceptions of you as a result of your ADHD and their lack of understanding.
Have you ever had the opportunity to live your life for a week or a month without alarms, without a schedule, without someone telling you what you should be doing or when? Just what you want?
I recognize that's a lot, and most couldn't afford to entertain the idea but that's kinda what they're talking about with environmental changes - people can't afford to not conform to unnatural/arbitrary schedules and routines.
You might be fascinated by what will happen. My sleep schedule regulated to 7-8 hours, granted it was offset by about 14 hours from everyone else's schedules - but for the first time ever, I had regular sleep patterns. What followed was a burst of energy, creative output, excitement for the future and a somewhat on-demand hyperfocus state.
Something as simple as having the opportunity to just let my body dictate it's own schedule allowed my brain to focus during my actual peak hours that have always been wasted on exhaustedly trying to sleep prior. Feeling like the things I'm doing are making meaningful and exciting progress made it easy to stay interested, fueling the next days hyperfocus. And it all fueled a 6 month streak of 15-18 hours a day working on something I cared about.
Sounds a lot more like making life easier, just wish it didn't come with the additional challenge of getting to stores while they're open. Your grumpiness over being woken by alarms, while a functional tool, is a direct result of you being in a position where you have to force yourself to fit a schedule against your body's natural cycle. How do you think that undercurrent of frustration manifests throughout the day?
We aren't lazy and although we produce lower quantities, it doesn't mean we're incapable. We just have to have environmental conditions met (rested, not stressed, active during your peak hours, not being interrupted, and being supported by others to make executive shortcomings a non-issue.) while facing an idea or thought we find meaningful/fascinating/novel, whatever. Our motivations are outcome based, so every layer of stress sabotages our ability to envision a successful execution - we just do that evaluation before we've even started or recognized our stress levels. That becomes even more of a challenge when you're forced to accept arbitrary work for mere survival. I get it.
I know underlying stress is what sets off my need to problem solve and jump tasks until I find the solution to the stress - but the moment I eliminated that contributing factor I was able to align with my brain again with some other mitigating techniques, rituals, and acceptance that while I could invoke hyperfocus ( I still don't get to choose what gets it, at least not directly.) But I can actually function in the way I'm supposed to for once.
If that's all you think ADD and ADHD are, then I'm with the other guy...you don't understand ADHD.
I'm curious what you would change about (Western?) society to make ADHD manageable like it apparently already is in "many countries," in concrete well defined terms. Not sure how society could negate the emotional regulation issues that frequently come with ADHD. I would also emphasize there's a distinction between "a society where people with ADHD can function" and "a society perfectly suited for people with ADHD."
I'm sensing that ADHD is a label thrust upon you, and if you feel you function fine without any sort of treatment it's probably not accurate. It's also now occurring to me how hilariously easy it would be to troll any sort of mental health issue. Depression isn't a disorder it's just SADNESS coming from MODERN SOCIETY and we just need to uncheck the CAUSE DEPRESSION box in society's configuration.
Sounds like you stopped learning about this in the 90s. It's not even "labelled" as ADD anymore because it doesn't truly grasp the scope of the disorder.
You're a primitive human in the wild. You're hunting, tracking the prey for a long time. You get distracted and start doing something else. You die. Perhaps even your entire family may starve. This is why it's a disorder across very different environments. It can affect the person's ability to cope across extremely different environments.
Likewise, if you have impulse control problems with your ADHD, you might not be able to prevent yourself from making a noise or movement at the wrong time, scaring off the prey or getting the attention of a predator (like a lion). Well, there goes your survival once again.
My thoughts are definitely disordered.
Here's an expert talking about outcomes https://youtube.com/watch?v=26V6LCbKXJU&si=Mu1mO845lvJYCgH8
Tldw: worse outcomes in education, relationships, careers, automobile safety, finance. So all you have to do is not be in school, drive, be in a relationship (romantic or not), have a career, have credit, etc. Your suggestion that it's just the environment and all we have to do is change how finance, the job market, education, and human relationships work and get fully self driving cars right now is not only woefully uninformed but also such a massive undertaking to the point of being a joke.
I suggested no such thing. You are coming to wild conclusions on your own. Please read it again more carefully. I have in no way suggested that it is possible to change the environment.
This you?
Where in this sentence is it implied that it is possible let alone easily doable to change the environment? Using an "if" conditional implies a hypothetical and nothing more. You people are being nonsensical and looking to be angry for reason beyond comprehension at this point.
So you don't think it should be labeled a disorder because doing something that you are now claiming is you never said "possible let alone easily doable" fixes it?
Please clarify exactly why you don't think it should be called a disorder. You seem to be rapidly backpedaling about what you did or didn't say without actually backing up your point, just whining that any mistake on your part is a misunderstanding on mine. You have an opportunity to clarify instead of whine, explicitly. So go ahead, clarify why it shouldn't be a disorder.
I have dealt with ADD and a problem called misophonia my entire life. I'll stick with misophonia for now since it is easier to summarize. This is a very real difference with my mind that can be thought of as "not normal" among the majority. Specific sounds cause what can be described as an anxiety attack for me. This is completely out of my control and no amount of logical reasoning can make my body stop behaving this way. Even when I know for certain there is nothing wrong with that sound and I shouldn't be so annoyed with it. Regardless, it has caused me a lot of trouble being able to function in modern society where I can't avoid being around these specific sounds. When something different with your mind starts to cause significant problems functioning in society is when we label something as a mental disorder. This is literally the definition of a mental disorder. Now imagine for a moment there was an environment that didn't have any of these sounds that cause me problems. Or how about an environment with no sounds at all? The difference with my mind would never even have an opportunity to present itself and thus would never even be known. Therefore it can be said that I don't have a mental disorder in this environment. It is likely not possible for most mental disorders to have any feasible change environment that could make it not difficult to exist in that environment. I've made no such claims that this is possible let alone easy and that is an entirely a fabrication of yours.
The crux of the problem I am getting at is that the way people think of mental disorders is from an ableist perspective. That there is something wrong with the person themselves for the way they were born. This is merely a problem of semantics and definitions as I have said many times.
In the future please stop being so rude and intentionally misinterpreting intent. You give off the impression of a very rude person with ableist points of view which is rather uncool.
You're damn right I'm being rude to somebody that says my very real disorder shouldn't be recognized because if we were in an environment that doesn't exist we'd be ok, so it doesn't really count . Well, I live in a real place that I can't control and I have very real maladaptations to it. There is absolutely something wrong with me that will likely shorten my life and make it worse in a number of ways. Pretending that those outcomes don't exist or erasing the struggle of the people with ADHD, including your own, by saying it doesn't deserve to be classified as a disorder is erasure and ableist. I'm not misinterpreting your point, it's just a bad point.
TIL I'm not poor because in a different environment (where money doesn't exist) I'm fine!
One person with ADHD to you: you're wildly misunderstanding or you're trolling. There is no alternative here.
They are not suggesting ADHD should not be recognized as something we deserve accomodations for. They are saying the exact opposite on a true but unrealistic level. They are saying it's only a problem that requires accomodations because of the way the world runs on neurotypical ideas and generally under neurotypical leadership. Everything.
Neurotypical folks will never question the 9-5 because it works for them. But it's a problem for them if you can't maintain working schedules.
They will never understand the constant executive challenges we face, so they cannot relate to our struggles. They don't care enough to empathize, so it's an ironic character judgement against you.
Finding a job that even tickles your interest is hard. Finding leadership that gets it is very difficult. Making it through the screening process to the interview can be almost impossible. But that's just how things are, right?
The environmental problem is neurotypical dominance at every level of life from the top down and the expectations you will held to by default as a direct result of that. The ease with which you are brushed off is a result of the combination of those unfair expectations, their lack of understanding, and the connotation of "disorder." It makes you a problem not worth considering to them.
The desire for freedom from the expectation of working like a robot on a rigid schedule doing something that doesn't interest you in the slightest, is probably universal. Sure.
There are plenty of ADHD folks who are able to outperform neurotypical peers when they have a suitable environment. They typically have quite a few accomodations being made by empathetic leadership to create the mental space they need. In my own case, this meant a near complete disregard for when working hours occur, judgements based on results as opposed to daily stand-ups and reports, and completely bypassing hierarchies of communication to limit people's access to pulling me out of hyperfocus.
Not like overwhelming people with needlessly repetitive information stretched out over long periods of time littered with small talk and nonsense doesn't have value, it's just completely counter to what the ADHD brain needs to work.
The almost complete lack of alternatives which align to your natural cycles and focus states is a social failing to recognize that you are not disordered at all. You just do not have viable options so they slapped disordered on you and make you jump through fees and hoops for accomodations. Because this is America: one size fits all or you're broken.
So here you are, demanding they close your cage and keep you in there. (which is a shitty band-aid you appear to recognize is the best we've got)
Since changing the world in that way (suggested by Izzy) is impossible, it is trolling everyone to suggest that the problem isn't real because if the environment were changed it wouldn't be a problem. It's a hypothetical fantasy and should have been stated as such. It's a shallow excuse to argue to invalidate the experiences of others. An attempt to lessen how seriously this disorder is seen. It is so precisely written and constructed to do this, that it seems quite impossible to have been an accident. Basic composition classes in college struggle to teach people to do this on purpose so clearly and succinctly.
No, genuinely, you're reading it wrong and taking it personally because others already started the downvote train. Yes what they suggest isn't immediately realistic, but it's easily achievable if people actually wanted to do it.
Like are you under the belief that all of our social structures were borne out of the natural order of the universe - entirely immutable and incapable of change?
Is it truly not possible in your mind that we are arbitrarily subjecting ourselves to unnecessary cruelty for the comfort of people who think change can't happen?
They never said the problem isn't real. They said the way society is structured is what make it manifest as a problem because society is not equipped to accommodate you as you deserve. You don't deserve to be treated as a broken individual, you deserve to not have an unjustly difficult life because of something you were born with. Giving it a negative connotation label as a disorder affects the way people (without a clinical understanding of the word) behave toward you. The label is enhancing the harm you face and would be the first step toward altering the public understanding of ADHD.
Yeah, blocking you, too. That's not the start to a good faith conversation.
I understand. I disagree. I refuse to pretend ADHD would be great in some magical land. It would still suck. I would still be tired all the time. I would still have many symptoms that have no upside. I would still want it gone.
Ok troll
Looks like @Skiv must be @Izzy on a second user account.
How's that paranoia going for you?
I have to assume you are trolling at this point. Please go away if you are going to be an asshole. You are completely fabricating nonsense on your own which makes me feel like you are just making fun of people with conditions. This is directly against the rules.
It causes significant impairment on my ability to live my life, regardless of the environment I am in.
There is no change in environment that will solve ADHD.
you're like almost getting at the social model of disability, but framing it in a way that invalidates people's lived experiences of having a brain that works fundamentally differently from the norm.
I'm not doing any such thing. Everyone has just had some weird misunderstanding. The topic of the thread is about putting a positive spin on the term and I am agreeing to that as it is something I personally deal with. I find that the term "disorder" has an unfair negative connotation and could possibly be called something else. Preferably with a more positive connotation that doesn't imply there is something wrong being born this way. If that isn't possible then people should at least understand the medical definition of what a disorder is to help remove the negative connotation.
The response has been disturbing to say the least. Considering how ridiculous some people have been I have to assume negative intent of trolling and ableism.
Try to keep in mind how many redditors are now on lemmy.
They get emotional and want to fight over semantics and anecdotes constantly especially when they realize they've assumed intent incorrectly. They only know how to double down. It's not their fault.
They're only hearing "your problem isn't real" because they're not listening.
"Disorder" can be seen negatively. That is fair. However, if you use a milder term than "disorder", then it is even harder for people to take ADHD seriously as a real thing. This is already a challenge, and using a less serious word would make it worse.