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I’m invincible!
Depends on where you ride your bicycle.
In the US, bicycle deaths are at 79 per billion miles src. In the Netherlands, this is 17 per billion miles. src.
Note that the Dutch take much more risk when cycling. It is normal for young kids to cycle to school and sports unsupervised. Bicycle helmets are very rare. Despite that "reckless behavior", cycling is quite safe here. Having dedicated cycling infrastructure really helps.
Before I make this statement, yeah, I know where I am.
Deaths per billion passenger-miles
All of these fatality rates, for all of these forms of transportation, are vanishingly small. Comparing the rates of one vehicle to another with phrases like "17 times more likely" while ignoring the "billion passenger-miles" scale is misleading.
In order to present these in a more complete way, the odds of dying on each of these vehicles is:
- Motorcycle: 0.000000213
- Car: 0.0000000073
- Ferry: 0.0000000032
- Amtrak: 0.00000000043
- Airplane: 0.00000000007
That is per mile, which is usually not the distance humans limit themselves to in their lives. Assuming you travel a million miles in your life, you do have a 20% chance of dying if exclusively using a motorcycle, which I would consider relevant. The change from car to train already far less so.
Fair and excellent points.
Assuming 20,000 miles traveled per year, it would take 50 years to reach 1,000,000 miles. So let's lay out the % odds of fatality over 50 years, at 20,000 miles per year, if using each of these means exclusively:
- Motorcycle: 21.3%
- Car: 7.3%
- Ferry 3.2%
- Amtrak: 0.43%
- Airplane: 0.07%
You're also getting at another important point: it is difficult for people to really comprehend very large or very small numbers. With that in mind, if we divide each of those percentages by 50, we should come up with the odds of dying in a given vehicle per year, again, given a 20,000 mile per year usage and exclusive use of one vehicle type:
- Motorcycle: 0.426%
- Car: 0.146%
- Ferry: 0.064%
- Amtrak: 0.0086%
- Airplane: 0.0014%
Of these, only motorcycle and car are anywhere near significant, and they're still really unlikely. The remaining three still are small enough to be essentially incomprehenisble. (And who travels 20,000 miles a year on a ferry, anyway?)
Another bit I would like to note is that the comparison posed was between car and train, based on safety. Why was airplane not mentioned? It's far and away the least likely to kill you.
Of course airplane wasn't mentioned. Airplanes are not appropriate solutions to many kinds of necessary travel, and airplanes in general have a worse reputation for their environmental effects. Trains are not solutions to many kinds of necessary travel, either, at least not in the current landscape of travel options available to very many people in the United States.
Again, I know exactly where I'm commenting. I definitely think that there should be way more public transportation options available. I think the number of individual-operated vehicle miles can and should be reduced. I think the kinds of individual-operated vehicles should be addressed more sensibly (we don't get to have the small pickups of the 80s and 90s because of unintended consequences of CAFE standards driving manufacturers to create larger and larger "light" trucks, for example).
Pointing out that "cars are 17 times more likely to kill you than trains!" does not serve the purpose of making a better world through transportation reform.
Trains are not solutions to many kinds of necessary travel, either, at least not in the current landscape of travel options available to very many people in the United States.
That's kind of the point though. Trying to get folks in the US to support better travel infrastructure. Doesn't even always have to be trains.
Pointing out that "cars are 17 times more likely to kill you than trains!" does not serve the purpose of making a better world through transportation reform.
Why not? Everything you said honestly made it sound like everything else is a much safer alternative than personal vehicles. Why is that not an argument for better infrastructure and transportation reform? I've known people who have died in car accidents. I do not know anyone that's even been in a train accident let alone killed in one. Your numbers are not that supportive of cars being generally safe. Those are not great odds when considering the loss is catastrophic. It's probably one of the biggest risks folks willingly take and will actively avoid lesser risks.
Also not saying it's wrong, but why are we dividing by 50? It's per mile basis. If it's 20000 miles per year, it's already by year, no?
Also not saying it's wrong, but why are we dividing by 50?
yes, 7% dead by 50 seems a lot to me. I see no reason to split that to an annual rate either.
50 is still young to die, so all of that 7% died young, when still of working age
If car is a fundamental long-term lifestyle choice/situation then people are exposed to the risk for a long period of time. ,20,30, 40 50 years. Its probbaly a decision on the same frquency as the choice to live urban/suburb/rural - maybe every 5-10 years to make a choice - but maybe a change only a few times in a lifetime.
Put this another way...
If the car users had decent range and network of bus /train /cycle /walk options and were willing to use them , they might be able to choose their risk exposure year by year, trip by trip and minimise it.
but without those alternatives in place, it's just not a year-by-year decision for many people.
7% probably will die and may not feel they had the choice to do anything else.
I assume you'd see it as one of the leading causes of death (in the working age population) for that reason. Sorry i don't know those stats of the top of my head- and i don't know how to search on the internet.
The only thing i'd caveat with the stats are, safety figures from 2000-2009 will not be representative of 30-50 years from now.
Hopefully road design will improve - and vehicle design will definitely become safer for those in the cars. so the risk will likely fall.
Though the interaction between safety and congestion can go either way.
but suppose the risk halves (i'd reckon optimistic) the 7% drop to 3.5% i think that's still a serious killer in my book.
if we divide each of those percentages by 50, we should come up with the odds of dying in a given vehicle per year,
I'm being very nitpicky but this isn't quite how it works, if you have a 90% chance of survival one year, you'd have 0.9^2 = 0.81= 81% chance of surviving two years in a row. With that in mind, the odds of dying should be relative to the fiftieth root of surviving fifty years, which gives:
- Motorcycle: 0.478%
- Car: 0.151%
- Ferry: 0.065%
- Amtrak: 0.0086%
- Airplane: 0.0014%
Without additional decimals it's hard to see the change for the really small numbers but it doesn't make much of a difference in reality.
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But where i live i need a car to travel to the train...
And the train doesnt go where i need to go.
i think this community sees that as one of the negative consequences of a high car dependent place.
Precisely the issue of car dependent infrastructure
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If you include non-fatal injuries, cars would be like way, WAY more dangerous than a train or plane.
Better yet, include people outside of a car who's been injured or killed by one, and those numbers would be astronomical.
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i want to build a fuck_planes community, but i doubt anyone will get..on board. cars are less of an issue (just demand smaller cars, high wheelers need to be abolished, luckely they aren't common in europe). planes are the bigger threat for now. we need to get our priorities straight.
For short haul flights where a train is preferable, or private iets, absolutely. However airplanes are still the most efficient way to travel long distances. Abolishing airplanes altogether is one of the least thought out takes I've ever heard.
Abolishing airplanes altogether is one of the least thought out takes I've ever heard.
yea, not altogether. i commented on this before https://lemm.ee/comment/2119584 : air travel should be limited only to transcontinental travel or cross country in Asia's case (since its a bunch of isles at that point) efficient? ofc, moneywise and timewise. environemently friendly? dont think so. thoses tons of burned kerosene would translate into tons of co2 released, in a single flight. no wonder our globe feels like a microwaved cookware. fast and affordable have a cost.
i drew the analogy from the game warcraft: u only need to pay for a zeppelin when u want to reach somewhere that couldn't be accessed by land, in a map. we just live in a bigger map.
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Not in the US. You have to actually have access to trains to be able to die while riding them.
If only I could take the train to get groceries
If you demand proper urban planning, you will be able to walk to get groceries.
How does that help rural people?
They can stick to cars, that makes sense. But in the US, only 17% of people live in rural areas. That's not a trump card.
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I walk to get groceries, to the doctor, to the dentist, to the pub, to the park, to see my friends (or ride bike)
You live in an area where that’s possible
I didn't buy a house in the suburbs for the sake of buying a house.
So in other words you live in a city and therefore an area where walking and using public transportation is possible.
Not everyone lives in a city, can afford to live in a city, or is in a position where simply moving to the city is an option.
the doomer in me: oh shit i need to drive more
As someone who drove his motorcycle today instead of taking the train, I'm getting a kick out of this. Costco runs on the train are quite difficult. About 4 times a year, I go to Costco and the extra storage on my bike means I can make those trips at that frequency rather than more often. Most of my other shopping is done on foot or, if I need something from a specific shop, by train. Some things (like large blocks of cheese) I can only really find at Costco here in Japan. Same with American-style bacon.
Speed limits are definitely lower here, and our trains are better than Amtrack, so I think both of those number will be lower.
The idea of specifically choosing motorcycle as your Costco mode of transport is hilarious, but I suppose panniers beat lugging a bunch of bags on a train. Also, my brother did a foreign exchange program in Okinawa when he was in high school, and I'm often reminded of how he said his host-father pronounced Costco as "Co-su-tu-co".
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As a North American…. Taking a motorcycle to Costco because of its storage seems crazy.
Also taking a train anywhere near a Costco.
I don't understand this community. You despise cars and anyone who drives them? Sorry I don't live in the middle of the city with good public transport options, so what the fuck do you expect me to do? Bike 30 miles to work?
Hi and welcome! Our take is a little bit more nuanced than that, if I may be bold enough to speak on behalf of the community. We understand that most people don't have a choice but to own and drive a car for most of your everyday needs: here we call that car dependence. The sane among us recognize that most people didn't necessarily choose this way of living, and most acknowledge that those who enjoy it have that right.
We do recognize that car dependence has a lot of negative impacts on society: from climate to economy to health to geopolitics and more (there's whole books on the subject). And we're a growing group of people who strive to build a better world than the one we inherited. What that means is taking action to reduce car dependence and instead promote alternatives like public transit, walkable towns, and cities built for people (not for cars). It's a multifacted issue, far beyond the (incendiary) name implies. This discussion is about trains and how safe they are compared to cars, which kill over 50 thousand people a year in the United States, and injure millions more. It doesn't have to be this way.
Wouldn't it be great to not have to drive 30 miles each day? That's the kind of future we're trying to build for the growing number of people who desire that. Accomplishing that is difficult and takes time and political action that many in this community are trying to build.
Or bike to the next public transport. If there is none, you should get loud, as you are not being given the freedom to choose your mode of transport. You are being forced to use a car, which requires you to be of age and somewhat ablebodied. If you lose your eyesight, you will be stranded, as the only way to get around is by car. If you are too old to drive, what will you do? How do children get around on their own where you live? How many hours are you working per week, just so you can afford a car to get to work?
Not build your life around a mode of transport that has massive negative externalities?
It's another vector for societal division. They even have little made up slurs and everything! It's just another psyop to make us hate each other more. The folks here are either sipping their boxed wine while giggling at the funny car memes and coded banter, thinking they are so clever with their stale attempt at dated, hyper-agressive circlejerk humor, OR they are actually, functionally disabled and cannot be trusted to tell fiction from reality. Either way, best to block and move on. There is nothing of value here. Unless you like ant farms.
I didn't even know you could die by taking the train
Derailment or provoking someone with a gun, I'm guessing?
Or falling into the tracks from the station... Pretty gruesome
that’s technically not on a train
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The data is probably better now
Really depends for a motorcycle. I'd rather one over long distance highway than a car, but rather a car over short distance urban routes.
I may just be dumb.
But are you trying to say, you'd rather use a motorcycle for long distance and a car for short distance?
As someone who rides, that's like the super opposite of what I do.
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I dunno. Highway hypnosis is much more likely on well, a highway. Folks will be paying a lot less attention in that scenario. Hell, even you will likely be paying a lot less attention. It's just how humans work. Monotony breeds complacency. I understand your reasoning for think the motorcycle is safer on the highway than in a heavily traffic urban area. But I do not understand why you think it's safer than the car on a highway.
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And people are afraid of airplanes
And for evolutionary, not logical reasoning. Humans are naturally afraid of heights. If you fall, you die. Stay away from heights. Logically, you are more likely to die on the way to the airport than in the plane.
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this post was submitted on 11 Aug 2023
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Fuck Cars
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