429
TIL kobolds in Japan are dog-people because of a mistranslation in a copy of AD&D in the 80s (slrpnk.net)
submitted 3 months ago* (last edited 3 months ago) by ByteOnBikes@slrpnk.net to c/til@lemmy.world
50 comments fedilink hide all child comments

I was reading about Dungeon Meshi and Kuro, the "kobold".

Kobolds are usually depicted as canine humanoids in Japanese media compared to the more reptilian humanoids that kobolds are depicted as in western media[4] such as Dungeons and Dragons. The reason for this is credited as either a mistranslation of the first Dungeons and Dragons Monster Manual[5] or because of the lack of reference art in said Monster Manual, but a picture of a jackalwere being present on the opposite page[6], which was then used as reference art for the anime, The Record of the Lodoss War. That anime is credited for solidifying the trope of canine kobolds in Japanese media.

From https://delicious-in-dungeon.fandom.com/wiki/Kobolds#cite_note-5

And the supporting youtube video https://m.youtube.com/shorts/rUntTZ6spOc

Bonus fact: piglike orcs.

top 50 comments
sorted by: hot top controversial new old
[-] Mnemnosyne@sh.itjust.works 99 points 3 months ago

It's not a mistranslation that caused it, kobolds were both described and illustrated as doglike until 3rd Edition where with no explanation they simply changed it and decided they were lizard like/draconic.

I do think the new version of kobolds is an interesting creature, but truthfully they should've just come up with a new name for this new creature instead of just completely changing the kobold.

[-] Rhynoplaz@lemmy.world 22 points 3 months ago

Yeah. I've never really been sure what a Kobold was. My friend had an older monster manual that showed it as a chubby beady eyed goblin, while mine had a little rat man, and then I get back into the game a few decades later, and kobolds are now little dragons.

[-] all-knight-party@kbin.run 13 points 3 months ago

Should've just named the new ones drakobolds

[-] pwalker@discuss.tchncs.de 11 points 3 months ago

Found a really good source including a picture of the first edition. It looks like that they were mentioned indeed in the 2nd edition to be more dog like in a sense of voice "yappin like a dog" and smelling like damp dog. Their visuals however were not really dog like. So I assume it was maybe both a mistranlation and an over interpretation of some texts from 2nd edition or just pure free choice from the author of this anime. https://www.belloflostsouls.net/2022/01/dd-monster-spotlight-kobolds.html

[-] Leate_Wonceslace@lemmy.dbzer0.com 6 points 3 months ago

Their visuals however were not really dog like.

The kobold in the 1st edition illustration in the article you linked has a distinctly dog-like muzzle. Other related media, such as Stone Soup, also depict or describe them as "dog-like".

[-] pwalker@discuss.tchncs.de 2 points 3 months ago* (last edited 3 months ago)

I guess with some imagination you could say the muzzle does indeed look dog like but the rest? I mean even if you morph some reptiles into humans you'd get such kind of muzzle. It's not really that "distict" imo, but I get why some would say otherwise.

"Kobolds were first described as hairless humanoids with small horns by Gygax in the Monster Manual (1977)"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kobold_%28Dungeons_%26_Dragons%29?wprov=sfla1

[-] Mnemnosyne@sh.itjust.works 2 points 3 months ago

That first edition version looks like a dog's head with horns and pointy ears to me at least, and that's kinda what I was referring to.

Admittedly the 2nd edition version looks a bit less doglike, but I still see similarities with some breeds.

[-] Kiernian@lemmy.world 3 points 3 months ago

Fahhhhk, thank you.

I swear I remembered dog people from 2nd edition and was super confused when I started playing DDO and they were some kind of dragonkin. Then people who started with 3rd were telling me kobolds had always been lizards.

Somewhere my old 2nd edition books are still around in a box, but damned if I know where.

[-] Lumun@lemmy.zip 2 points 3 months ago

Could have brought viashino into D&D. They were introduced in MTG in 1998 so could have been added for 3rd edition. I kinda wish they had pulled more of magic's original species into D&D earlier, there are some cool ones.

[-] tiredofsametab@kbin.run 63 points 3 months ago* (last edited 3 months ago)

https://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E3%82%B3%E3%83%9C%E3%83%AB%E3%83%88 seems to have a bit of a different approach stating that D&D 3rd ed. changed them to be more reptilian. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kobold actually seems to corroborate this. I played D&D since the end of the 1st ed. days and I think of them as kinda dog-like heads that were also scaly. I have a 2nd ed. Monstrous Manual, but it's on the other side of the world at the moment so I can't check.

https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Kobold

https://adnd2e.fandom.com/wiki/Kobold_(Creature)

I'm not buying the OP here.

[-] wjrii@lemmy.world 10 points 3 months ago

My only real experience with them is from Pool of Radiance, the first “gold box” CRPG. They were pretty dog-like in that.

[-] tiredofsametab@kbin.run 5 points 3 months ago

I had so many of the SSI gold)silver box titles. Death Knights of Krynn was my first IIRC

[-] ByteOnBikes@slrpnk.net 9 points 3 months ago

I hate to ask: can you update the fandom with your research?

https://delicious-in-dungeon.fandom.com/wiki/Kobolds

I don't know enough about this topic and Im really enjoying learning all of this!

[-] DarkThoughts@fedia.io 5 points 3 months ago

Anyone with an original copy of the western version should be able to easily confirm this, no?

[-] nickwitha_k@lemmy.sdf.org 1 points 3 months ago

Don't have it with me but I distinctly the third link as the depiction in the AD&D 2E Monstrous Manual.

[-] Neb@lemmy.world 44 points 3 months ago

Hm. The source for this is a vtubers YouTube short?

[-] momocchi@lemmy.world 13 points 3 months ago

The most reliable source there is

[-] ByteOnBikes@slrpnk.net 4 points 3 months ago

It smelled fishy when I posted it but honestly, I'm dumb as a doorknob to dig deeper and didn't know how to start this convo on fantasy races.

[-] cikano@lemmy.world 29 points 3 months ago

They were more doglike in 1e and 2e of D&D, so I don't think it's a mistranslation

[-] xwolpertinger@lemmy.world 28 points 3 months ago

Kobolds are originally just the "small folk" of German mythology with all of them being gnome-like but with varying degrees of hospitality. That's why you get your mine Kobolds, your Heinzelmännchen and your Klabautermann.

Bonus fact: Dog like Kobolds in DnD derived media are not exclusive to Japan, in the Everquest lore they are also dog like (and a bit hyena like, whereas gnolls here are fully canine)

[-] GladiusB@lemmy.world 4 points 3 months ago

Kobolds in Final Fantasy 14 are exactly as you described here. Small and gnome like.

[-] Kiernian@lemmy.world 1 points 3 months ago

You've ruined your own lands, you'll not ruin mine!

[-] Pooptimist@lemmy.world 28 points 3 months ago

Where I live (a German speaking country) a kobold is more like a small humanoid being, more like a gnome

[-] ameancow@lemmy.world 29 points 3 months ago* (last edited 3 months ago)

Pretty sure they are germanic in origin, but I would have to double check.

Originally, in the middle ages miners experienced toxic gasses and other weird effects while mining iron, such as ore exploding when smelting. They attributed some of the problems to mischievous creatures they would call Kobolds hiding in the mines.

It was eventually discovered that these problems were caused by another whole element creating impurities in the ore, when separated and identified, it came to be known as Cobalt.

[-] Wizard_Pope@lemmy.world 9 points 3 months ago

Isn't Kobold basically just German for goblins and gremlins and the like?

[-] raef@lemmy.world 5 points 3 months ago* (last edited 3 months ago)

American, but I also think of them as like blue, spiky icy imps. I'm not sure where I got it, but seems like a Nintendo era RPG, maybe Final Fantasy

[-] Stovetop@lemmy.world 17 points 3 months ago

I don't know if the "reptilian" description applies to all Western media. I think it might just be D&D, as I was always used to seeing dog-like Kobolds in EverQuest and rat-like Kobolds in World of Warcraft.

[-] CitizenKong@lemmy.world 15 points 3 months ago

In Germanic folklore, kobolds just look like small people that are often also depicted as being green and having large ears. They are spirits of the home and sometimes benevolent and sometimes mischievous.

[-] njm1314@lemmy.world 3 points 3 months ago

Yeah I'd never seen Kobolds as lizard folk until I played Abennar.

[-] Annoyed_Crabby@monyet.cc 12 points 3 months ago

Huh, TIL Kobold is lizard people in D&D. My knowledge of kobold is first via Ragnarok Online, it's a game by South Korean company and it's depict it as dog-people. Since then i didn't see it depict as anything else.

[-] Blackmist@feddit.uk 17 points 3 months ago

I'm still not sure what the fuck they were supposed to be in WoW, I just know you no take candle.

[-] Annoyed_Crabby@monyet.cc 10 points 3 months ago

Ohh, totally forgot about Blizzard's kobold, i always assume they're also dog-people but then i got confused with Gnoll. Apparently Kobold in Warcraft is rat-people lol.

[-] cashmaggot@piefed.social 1 points 3 months ago

I am a mixed goober, and always figured they were dogs. But also have only played D&D collectively twice in my life (and then the pandemic happened). So I only know them from fantasy stuff. One of which being Age of Wonders, which I played with a friend at one point in my life. And was confused as to why the dog guys were little gremlins. Also watched Lodoss Wars as a kid, but don't really remember it. I'm not sure how a->b but I always assumed they were dog folk.

[-] Sesudesu@lemmy.world 1 points 2 months ago

Ragnarok Online 🤩

I met my now wife in that game.

[-] FrostyCaveman@lemm.ee 10 points 3 months ago

I first heard of Kobolds in the PC game Age of Wonders. They were depicted as scrawny little goblin like creatures who lived in Orcish garbage piles. They had glowing green eyes. Certainly not doglike.

Plus they had a poison melee attack. Respect for those little resource reclamation engineer dudes

[-] ByteOnBikes@slrpnk.net 3 points 3 months ago

That's where my mind goes when I think of kobold.

Like, the halfling of Orcs. And yes to poison attacks for some reason!

[-] FrostyCaveman@lemm.ee 1 points 3 months ago

the halfling of Orcs

Damn.. that’s so true

[-] jawa21@lemmy.sdf.org 8 points 3 months ago

I was exposed to them as dog like humanoids in EverQuest before I had ever known about them in D&D even though I had played D&D prior, so when I learned they are actually lizard/dragon like I was confused.

[-] MachineFab812@discuss.tchncs.de 7 points 3 months ago* (last edited 3 months ago)

Quest For Glory(not really D&D, but old) had them as a Grey, Pot-bellied, lanky, human-heightish, short-eared magical Goblinoid(holy shit: Endermen?). I never encountered any refference to them in western literature with either dog features or lizard tails or scales until some of the more recent Forgotten Realms books; Their presence always seemed like an after-thought. I mostly read the D&D novels though.

Never occoured to me that any dog-people I saw in anime or manga were kobolds, nor that those came into Japanese media through D&D, but un-like D&D, a lot of them were named characters that did stuff.

Still haven't seen a depiction of a lizard-Kobold. Sounds more like a Dragon-born's pet.

[-] ProdigalFrog@slrpnk.net 2 points 3 months ago* (last edited 3 months ago)

Huh, I forgot they called that little guy a kobold in Quest for Glory. I always went in there to steal his shrooms, but only discovered decades later he had an invisible chest in there too that can be revealed with detect magic.

Fun to see someone mention the game out in the wild.

[-] Plopp@lemmy.world 6 points 3 months ago

Bottom right, isn't that the wolf that ate grandma?

[-] tyrefyre@sh.itjust.works 10 points 3 months ago

I don’t know your grandma’s boyfriends but she sounds pretty wild

[-] Tudsamfa@lemmy.world 5 points 3 months ago* (last edited 3 months ago)

I'm still fighting the good fight of keeping Kobolds as they originally were in Germanic fairy tales: weird little guys spiritually bound to a house or ship.

[-] rigatti@lemmy.world 1 points 3 months ago

Weird little fish guys? Are the ones bound to houses different looking?

[-] Tudsamfa@lemmy.world 2 points 3 months ago

If you expect a consistent appearance from fairy tale creatures I am sorry to disappoint you. They're just weird, little, solitary creatures.

load more comments (1 replies)
[-] carl_dungeon@lemmy.world 5 points 3 months ago

Accidental Death & Dismemberment?

[-] computergeek125@lemmy.world 8 points 3 months ago

Advanced Dungeons and Dragons - one of the early editions of the book
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Editions_of_Dungeons_%26_Dragons#Advanced_Dungeons_%26_Dragons

[-] carl_dungeon@lemmy.world 3 points 3 months ago

Thanks! I didn’t get into D&D until 5e so I’m light on some of the lore :)

[-] derbolle@lemmy.world 4 points 3 months ago

that explains the kobold enemy from quest64. that one confused me for ages

this post was submitted on 27 Jul 2024
429 points (100.0% liked)

Today I Learned

17686 readers
806 users here now

What did you learn today? Share it with us!

We learn something new every day. This is a community dedicated to informing each other and helping to spread knowledge.

The rules for posting and commenting, besides the rules defined here for lemmy.world, are as follows:

Rules (interactive)

Rule 1- All posts must begin with TIL. Linking to a source of info is optional, but highly recommended as it helps to spark discussion.

** Posts must be about an actual fact that you have learned, but it doesn't matter if you learned it today. See Rule 6 for all exceptions.**

Rule 2- Your post subject cannot be illegal or NSFW material.

Your post subject cannot be illegal or NSFW material. You will be warned first, banned second.

Rule 3- Do not seek mental, medical and professional help here.

Do not seek mental, medical and professional help here. Breaking this rule will not get you or your post removed, but it will put you at risk, and possibly in danger.

Rule 4- No self promotion or upvote-farming of any kind.

That's it.

Rule 5- No baiting or sealioning or promoting an agenda.

Posts and comments which, instead of being of an innocuous nature, are specifically intended (based on reports and in the opinion of our crack moderation team) to bait users into ideological wars on charged political topics will be removed and the authors warned - or banned - depending on severity.

Rule 6- Regarding non-TIL posts.

Provided it is about the community itself, you may post non-TIL posts using the [META] tag on your post title.

Rule 7- You can't harass or disturb other members.

If you vocally harass or discriminate against any individual member, you will be removed.

Likewise, if you are a member, sympathiser or a resemblant of a movement that is known to largely hate, mock, discriminate against, and/or want to take lives of a group of people, and you were provably vocal about your hate, then you will be banned on sight.

For further explanation, clarification and feedback about this rule, you may follow this link.

Rule 8- All comments should try to stay relevant to their parent content.

Rule 9- Reposts from other platforms are not allowed.

Let everyone have their own content.

Rule 10- Majority of bots aren't allowed to participate here.

Unless included in our Whitelist for Bots, your bot will not be allowed to participate in this community. To have your bot whitelisted, please contact the moderators for a short review.

Partnered Communities

You can view our partnered communities list by following this link. To partner with our community and be included, you are free to message the moderators or comment on a pinned post.

Community Moderation

For inquiry on becoming a moderator of this community, you may comment on the pinned post of the time, or simply shoot a message to the current moderators.

founded 1 year ago
MODERATORS
Rooki@lemmy.world
_MoveSwiftly@lemmy.world
Thekingoflorda@lemmy.world
DriftingDeep@lemmy.world
ericisshort@lemmy.world
Decoy321@lemmy.world