undermining regional carmakers
I think the word they're looking for is in fact "outcompeting."
Yutaro-Katori-with-butterfly-meme: Is this capitalism?
Outcompeting by having a nation subsidize the cost. Until local manufacturers go out of business because they can't compete. Then China owns the entire industry she jacks to the price.
It's like no one has been paying attention.
It's weird that this has to be explained to Americans - this is how much of Big Tech got to where they are, except they call it "disruption".
BTW this shows perfectly that free markets are not a be-all-end-all thing. It's a tool, and if it produces outcomes that you don't like, you can adjust it for better outcomes. The hypocrisy here is not that they pretend to worship the market then cry foul when China enters it on their terms, but that they do adjust it for their benefit all the time, and only pretend to worship it when people ask for their fair share.
While we've seen this cycle play out quite a few times in Big Tech, I think a lot of people just aren't aware of what it is. I've had friends decry how, "Uber is now basically as expensive as a taxi." I point out how Uber is only recently profitable and see people's minds get blown.
Uber's costs are because of oversized compensation packages for executives and lots of R&D put into autonomous driving. The bulk of the actual cost of operation is on the shoulders of drivers who wear down their vehicles for the sake of Uber. All Uber does is provide an app, which is laughably cheap by comparison.
Ah, I see. So it's cool when we do it (fossil fuel and ag subsidies, the auto industry bailout in 2008, etc.) but not when they do it.
Got it.
You're introducing an argument as a way to undermine the viewpoint that's opposite to yours.
No one said it's fine "when we do it". That's not the point being discussed.
The other bigger issue here is that these new cars are coming from a region that has a horrendous track record for safety and quality. EVs when done right are still a considerable risk with battery fires, but the ones manufactured in China are much worse for quality and safety. In the next few years, as these cars flood markets around the world, it will be a massive issue.
They seem safe enough to pass the EU’s safety standards, which are much higher than the US. Also this blanket “quality issues” argument without specific evidence is terrible. If we’re going off of quality in recent history, American manufacturing is down the toilet in terms of quality - just look at Boeing.
People wrongly assume all Chinese manufacturing is aliexpress fodder.
Lmao this is coming from the same safety organization that approved the Tesla Cybertruck?
I'll take my chances with a car that's seen EU approval.
But but but, rampant capitalism good
I mean the US is also doing that. It's not a subsidies issue; it's the fact that Chinese companies are using subsidies to actually make things while US companies are just pocketing them.
Is the US? What us car company is doing it to such a degree name countries are blocking their goods?
I get a craving for corn whenever someone says subsidies.
Local manufacturers
You mean Ford, GM, and Chrysler who make useless pieces of garbage and also outsource production to Mexico?
Who also got bailed out by the federal government for going bankrupt back in 2009?
GM, who just announced a $6 billion stock buy back once they knew tariffs would keep them safe from having to compete with Chinese EVs, that GM?
This sort of stuff is realistically why I have no sympathy for the major US automotive manufacturers. The only reason I don't just say "Screw them, let Chinese EVs drive them out of business," is because it would put so many people out of work in their plants who have no role in these decisions. Barring some fantasy where the Chinese companies establish US plants and offer equivalent or better union contracts for current employees at GM, Ford and Chrysler, these companies should simply be bound hand and foot in terms and conditions whenever something is done by the government to help them. Like, make those protectionist tariffs conditional on them hitting investment targets in relevant technologies, raising worker pay and benefits, reducing cost to the customer and a ban on stock buybacks for the duration of the tariffs being valid.
Lmao there's a guy who usually posts a long response to these "subsidies" claims bullshit, but I think they got into a pissing match with a mod in the comments and got banned lmao.
Jist of it is: China's subsidies are negligible compared to the US, and what they've actually done is created a competitive domestic market with a large number of players. Unless you think Chinese people are all puppets, even if China (as a country) owns the industry it would not prevent internal competition that drives down prices. Moreover, China does not offer per-unit subsidies on export. In fact, Chinese EVs exported to Europe are something like 40% more expensive than domestically for the same model.
Tesla has been subsidized by years. The difference is china delivers and in America an asshole get rich.
The ol' Wal-Marteroo
That doesn't exist anywhere...and I frankly don't think it ever will.
EDIT What's with the downvotes? Does anyone want to refute this?
Logically the refutation is kind of easy. Your prediction hinges on two things. A predicate that technology will never get better or cheaper.
Both of those things happen all the time as such, the refutation is simple.
Points to our entire technological history
Vehicles aren't just one technology though, they are commodity items. Cellphones are more expensive than a decade ago, so are laptops. The average ICE car has gotten much more expensive over time. So, do you think EV technologies will get significantly cheaper quicker than inflation and the general direction of the industry?
The example of the mobile phone is pretty wrong. The first mobile cost about $4000 and the cheapest today still costs around $25. The original cars cost 30k adjusted for inflation with the cheapest today costing around 15.
Once again. It's always held true. Outside factors could make it take longer but ultimately you said never. Which basically makes your original statement near impossible.
The Chinese government is subsidising the car industry to outcompete and destroy other manufacturers. These cars are being sold for less than they're worth. This is why the EU is banning them. Its the same thing when you in wish and order something for 3 dollars. The Chinese government subsisdises the postage in China and international law means your post has to deliver it in your country.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BYD_Seagull
Fwiw 100,000 yuan is currently roughly US$13,800
And what's the range on that? Spoiler: It's 190 mi base with a max 252 mi. That's nowhere near 350mi!
Okay thanks. That meme sure is inaccurate isn’t it. I’ll go have a word with the meme council and try to get that straightened out.
Your council works too slowly. Here's the fix:
Fine here
You good? All of your pressing concerns addressed? Everything to your meme satisfaction? Need some more documentation? Can we let the service workers go home now?
Don't feed the trolls.
BYD and CATL have announced that battery prices will be halved again by next year.
They're really ramping up and it will continue.
I don't doubt that batteries will continue to get better and better, and cheaper and cheaper. However, there are almost no new vehicles PERIOD that are sold in the US for $15K. Maybe we'll see EVs for $15K, but they certainly won't have a 350mi range. By the time cheap EVs have that range, cheap cars won't be sold for $15K due to inflation.
You provide no proof of the facts you state, therefore it’s just as easy for me to say you’re wrong as it is to believe you. 🤷🏼♂️
Translation: US automakers are worried about Chinese imports servicing a sector they have abandoned.
then start investing in tech, jobs, and education so the us can compete with inexpensive cars....
*editors note; i'm not a tankie, i just know that china has invested in technology while the us has been bogged down in partisanship (look at solar)
*editors note; i’m not a tankie, i just know that china has ~~invested in~~ subsidized technology while the us has been bogged down in partisanship (look at solar)
FTFY. While the Chinese government has made major investments in technology, the problem is their excessive subsidies which are allowing Chinese manufacturers to artificially out-compete their competitors. As others have pointed out, it's the same as "Big-Tech Disruptors" who begin with unsustainable prices, and once all their competitors leave the market they raise their prices.
Are Chinese subsidies really excessive compared to American subsidies? Tesla owes its entire existence to the government giving it carbon tax credits among other subsidies. Every single qualifying electric vehicle has been getting thousands of dollars in the form of tax credits all the way up to $7500 and it's only been more generous now since it can be used as a rebate right at the dealership. American car companies have taken that to mean they can jack up prices by those thousands of dollars and even more, because they still treat EVs as mainly premium products.
If you want to talk about artificially out-competing competitors, the 100% tariff is a prime example. The US has dragged its feet on technologies like EVs so they can juice profits and now it's crying and shrieking about competition being "unfair" for providing customers with a desirable product in a desirable price range. This protectionist policy not only sets back the fight against climate change, but also tightens the screws on customers who are already feeling the weight of inflation, just to continue the record profits by the auto companies.
Sorta like how the US runs the petroleum markets? You should go look at how they deal with softwood lumber too. Multiple WTO complaints for unfair trade practices. The US chose where they want to pour their subsidies and so has China.
They're not excessive subsidies. It's USA and Europe that are not subsidising EVs enough.
Any country or car maker that does not get on board with decarbonisation of the transport sector needs to be shut down asap.
America is the largest oil producer in the world. It should not be a surprise the incentives to move to EV is not big. The longer we are all addicted to oil, the more money America and fossil fuel giants make.
China does not have much oil in the ground. They are investing in EV and renewables because it allows them independence from the oil lobby. Which is a very welcome coincidence to fight global warming.
We would also need the government to pay for half of the cost to build the cars. That's what China is doing and why the cars are so cheap.
is it hard to.. ya know... hypothetically obtain one of these cheaper, mexican imported evs? askin for a huh friend
If you want yourself or your house to burn in a lítium battery fire, then sure, go for it.
Edit: I'm going to tag this post of mine and come back in a few years when all the stories about banning Chinese-made EVs come out because of safety issues. See you all in a couple years.
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