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Trump says Palestinians will have no right of return to Gaza under his plan
(www.theguardian.com)
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this post was submitted on 10 Feb 2025
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"But if the Dems ran a better candidate...."
"But Harris didn't even stop in Dearborn, so it's her fault not ours"
"Sure, everything Trump says is a lie, but at least he stopped here to lie to our faces. It's the dem's fault."
"One of Trump's first acts last time was a Muslim ban, but I can't be arsed to remember that far back"
"I had to vote for this otherwise the dems wouldn't learn anything"
/s
"we just had to teach the DNC a lesson at the polls during that specific election!!!"
Biden: I just have to aid genocide during an election year when I’m up against an absolute fascist.
Edit: cope and deal with it
Thank you for saving Gaza
Is that not what happened? Lol
"Ooh I have a choice between genocide or genocide with extra fucking awful fascist bullshit. Which shall I choose? I know, I'll go for the obviously worse option because I'm a good person" <--- you
I voted dem, my state is blue, and we have a great local community. It’s been awful in Gaza long before trump. You can stand by whatever level of government funded genocide you want. There is nuance to voting, but not when I comes to aiding war crimes when you have complete power to stop sending munitions
OK, but you do realize that there was no option in this election that would achieve the results they wanted, right?
There was a choice for the status quo, and one to make things exponentially worse. People chose the exponentially worse option and are idiots for it.
Yeah, I know all that and voted with that in mind. I live in a non swing state. I’m not still defending genocide in comment sections 3 months after the election. You do realize it would have been cheaper for Biden to not send munitions and win over voters had he not continued on as he did. Untapped voting bloc, the nongenocide vote.
When did I defend genocide?
If you have no options but to vote for Genocide, you already lived in fascism.
Cool. You still helped make it worse.
Explain to me how I did that
By not voting against the guy who straight up said he would be a dictator on day one and no one would ever have to vote again.
Where did I say who I voted for?
Do you think the message got across to him? Did the DNC learn anything?
No, he’s a demented old man who broke many promises…like only running 1 term. That doesn’t mean you don’t say anything. It’s almost as if they are representing the will of the people…you need to show up and say something…like using your 1st amendment rights to organize and protest
Edit: fuck trump, his supporters & and anyone who can’t understand Biden’s role in giving the presidency back to trump. You can also add anyone in swing states that voted 3rd party/abstained
I’d like to earnestly suggest you reevaluate your strategy. Clearly threatening/withholding general election votes hasn’t been successful, and there’s obviously a lot of risk of negative outcomes like Trump winning. I think the general election is just too late in the process for a protest vote to mean anything.
I’m all for showing up and saying something, and I think pressure and threats during primary voting have worked in the past. I think we could have applied a LOT more pressure earlier in the process and might have had a better outcome. Now instead we have the worst possible result for the people of Palestine.
They did apply a lot of pressure during the primary. The total uncommitted in the Primary was 706,591 (Which may have been undercounted) which is absolutely massive for a primary. On average, general turnout is twice that of primary turnout. The Democratic Party knew that at they were risking at least 1.4 million votes by ignoring the issue. Here Are 34 Polls That Show A Ceasefire & Weapons Embargo Help Kamala Win. They also knew throughout the whole campaign that a vast majority of their constituents wanted weapons embargo and permanent ceasefire (required by domestic and international law), plus a majority of independents and Republicans. There was no valid reason for the Democratic Party to ignore the demands of that many voters, especially if trying to win an election
It may have been an impossible task to course-correct. I just think that the primary was our best chance. It’s like we failed to hit the mark but instead of hanging up our weapon we just started shooting ourselves in the foot to prove a point.
While I do agree that voting for the lesser evil is the correct thing to do for harm reduction and advocated for people to do so during the campaign, ultimately this points to a much larger issue with our supposedly representative institutions.
Unfortunately, the reality is the vast majority of people do not vote on the basis of harm reduction or lesser evil. Most people are too busy working paycheck to paycheck and tuned out of politics. That said there any plenty of popular policies that would gain their interest, policies that would improve their material conditions. Both good policy and good communication is needed here. As well as good politics to follow through and deliver those policies.
Polls on policy
Democrats' Working-Class Failures, Analysis Finds, Are 'Why Trump Beat Harris'
2024 Post-Election Report: A retrospective and longitudinal data analysis on why Trump beat Harris
How Trump and Harris Voters See America’s Role in the World
Majority of Americans support progressive policies such as higher minimum wage, free college
Democrats should run on the popular progressive ideas, but not the unpopular ones
Here Are 7 ‘Left Wing’ Ideas (Almost) All Americans Can Get Behind
Finding common ground: 109 national policy proposals with bipartisan support
Progressive Policies Are Popular Policies
Tim Walz's Progressive Policies Popular With Republicans in Swing States
The much larger issue is whether the Democratic Party, which is supposed to represent the working class (at least since the New Deal), is genuinely interested in listening to and fighting for their voter base (working class people) or are instead prioritizing the desires of the Donor Class who provide a significant amount of money to the Party (as well as the Republican Party) and who's capital interests are opposed to the voter base. To me it seems clear that the Democratic Party prioritizes the donors at the expense of the voters.
And if that is the case, we have a serious issue. No one is genuinely representing the material interests of the vast majority of Americans. Both parties are completely captured by corporate interests and one only serves as a controlled opposition, creating a rachet effect towards Fascism.
In that case, I think the only way forward is grassroots. Community organizations and unions that do genuinely represent the material needs of the working class. Which is also a problem because unions have been systematically dismantled for decades, we are only recently seeing a resurgence. Non-profit organizations are under serious threat of being labeled terrorist organizations and cut out from all federal funding with no evidence needed. Despite that, I still think it's the only real way forward. Especially with the Democratic Party refusing to recognize the reason for their loss (they instead decided to blame it on their advocation of trans rights, which is completely unacceptable and untrue)
voting is not harm reduction
100% agreed. Change won’t come from within the Democratic party. We will have to force it to change or go around it.
I wouldn’t hold my strategy at more fault that the DNC and it’s strategists. They’re the ones with a billion dollars at their disposal and it’s kind of their job to appeal to voters. People have needs and cutting off billions in “genocide-aid” seems like a no brainer. Countless opportunities to invoke the Leahy Act, win over more voters, and save some money.
…but I’m only a constituent, what do I know
You can’t control their strategy, but you can control yours.
I think we’ve seen enough of the DNC now to know what to expect. I don’t think we can count on their promises or their logic. I’m not trying to blame you for Trump’s win, just suggesting that we work together (if we get another chance) to apply pressure at points when it will HELP. I don’t think protest voting during the last general election was the right move. Let’s learn from it instead of insisting it was the right thing to do.
Biden wasn't the candidate.
Correct.
Kamala: I would do nothing different
She wouldn't let a Palestinian speak at the DNC and pledged to do everything in her power to suck up to Netanyahu. There is so much cope here. There is no fucking difference between Biden, Kamala and Trump. They all suck off Satanyahu. The US is controlled by the Israel lobby. Mearsheimer has been screaming about this for 20 years.
Right, because Harris wanted to kick all of the Palestinians out so she could build a resort.
At least she and Biden attempted to negotiate peace.
Yes Biden, and by extension Kamala "nothing different" Harris, did want to kick out the Palestinians, they just tried to do it under the table https://apnews.com/article/israel-palestinians-hamas-war-egypt-trump-displacement-bc1c43f80655190824a5de4eb1d310cc
"The diplomat said Egypt rejected similar proposals from the Biden administration and European countries early in the war, which was sparked by Hamas’ Oct. 7, 2023 attack into southern Israel. The earlier proposals were broached privately, while Trump announced his plan at a White House press conference alongside Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu."
No, they really didn't. That was the whole problem
Year of Empty Rhetoric From the White House on Israel’s Wars
https://apnews.com/article/israel-palestinians-hamas-war-egypt-trump-displacement-bc1c43f80655190824a5de4eb1d310cc
🤡
You don’t make friends with genocide 🤷♂️
This is completely valid criticism. Stop pretending it's not. The DNC is in the habit of specifically going out of their way to choose unpopular pundits, and that's not voters fault.
Voting for Trump, or not voting is their fault...
You clearly have no idea how US elections work at that level. The single candidate with the most votes wins. "Not Trump" was not a candidate.
If Trump gets 49% of the vote, Harris 48%, and "other" gets 3%, that's not counted as 51% against Trump and he loses. That's Trump winning with 49% of the vote.
Anyone who didn't vote (or didn't vote for the only candidate likely to defeat Trump) is responsible for his win.
Two things can be true at once. Voters not voting is bad, and it's their fault. The DNC being incapable of finding pundits people want to vote for is also bad, and is also their fault. Pointing one out, has nothing to do with the other and both of these factors led to the election of Donald Trump not once, but TWICE.
Pointing out the DNC's responsibility to find electable candidates doesn't elevate the voters responsibility. But if the DNC were capable of finding pundits voters wanted to vote for no issue would exist. You wouldn't have people refusing to vote, or voting for Trump out of some fucked up sense of "haha, I'm gonna stick it to you!"
Pretending like this issue is solely at the fault of the voters is so fucking disingenuous, disgusting and partyist its insane.
The DNC could have run an iguana wearing an offensive trucker hat, and we still should have voted for the iguana when Trump was the alternative or stood a chance of winning again.
It's up to the voters to make smart choices, and some of them made the stupid choice.
You don't have to convince me of this. I completely agree. I've said only that the DNC has a responsibility to provide something better than an Iguana and for the past three election cycles, that's what we've got and people are pissed. But every time you try to have meaningful discourse about how the DNC is only supplying Iguana people treat you like you're some kind of turncoat who voted for Trump. And that's just bullshit.
We need to be mad at non-voters, people who "lashed out" and voted for Trump, and people who let themselves be swept away by the lies of a grifter who we did nothing but warn them about. But we also need to be mad at the DNC... It's not entirely the voters fault and fuck anyone who says it is.
Please also try to funnel that anger into meaningful action. Staying mad at non-voters is understandable but also entirely unhelpful. Staying mad at the DNC however is both understandable and rational, and has the potential to drive change if you allow yourself to channel it into something productive.
YOU do not seem to know how elections work beyond a single cycle. You view each election as singular isolated event, and you have zero perspective of the grander game that's played between cycles.
What exactly do you think would happen if 100% of Dem voters always "voted blue no matter who?" If every Dem vote is already locked in from day one, what incentive does the party have to do anything to actually represent them? This is why the Dems worked so hard to court Republicans to vote for Harris. They figured that the Dem base was so scared of Trump that their votes were already locked in.
If you want a party to actually represent your beliefs, there have to be some people on your side willing to walk away if the party drifts too far out of line. If no Democratic voters are ever willing to abandon a Democrat for being too conservative, then the Dem candidates will drift further and further right each cycle.
Yes, there's the idea of democracy being on the line, but when is democracy NOT going to be on the line? And truthfully, the Democratic leaders proved that they were not reliable stewards of Democracy. The party that nominated Garland had zero ability to argue that they would defend democracy. Just look at how limp-wristed the Democrats in Congress have been in responding to Trump's lawlessness. These people are not capable of defending democracy. Trump should have been thrown in Gitmo on day one of the Biden administration. Instead Biden nominated a Republican to be his attorney general, and the rest is history.
Which is exactly why in order to win an election, a campaign needs to offer concessions to voters to earn as many votes as possible.
Something the Democratic Party's Campaign decisively chose not to do, and in fact do the opposite.
Instead of trying to secure hundreds of thousands to millions of constituents by supporting a permanent ceasefire and weapons embargo, a policy vastly supported by the Democrats own voter base (in addition to the majority of also independent and Republican voters), they instead alienated those voters by more than just ignoring their valid concerns.
They chose to arrest thousands of student protestors, gave billions of dollars to a genocide at the tax payers expense consistently for 15 months, actively suppressed the voices and representation of the main victims of the genocide, and campaigned with Liz Cheney (who was actively involved with the Bush-Cheney foreign policy in the middle east and enthusiastically pro ethnic cleansing of Palestinians). They chose to do all that instead of represent the view of the majority of their constituents and abide by domestic/international law.
And that was just one of the major issues, along with immigration and the economy, that tanked the approval of the Democratic Party. If the Democratic Party wanted to actually win against Trump they would have done everything to gain as many votes as possible. They chose not to. They threw the election and let an unpopular fascist win.
most electoral college votes. Less people voted for trump than did for Hillary in 2016, and he still won.
"Democrats will ignore you if they can always count on your vote"
"Voting for the lesser of two evils is still voting for evil"
And idiotic absolutism is why we're in this mess.
Good job!
Edit: If you meant the /s on your comment, my bad. There's just so many insane takes going around, I kind of need that to differentiate.
/s...
Maybe I'm just getting whooshed here, but aren't you and atzanteol saying the same thing? lol
Are they just getting downvoted because the forgot the "/s"?
Are we? I feel like that's a pretty necessary "/s" considering the mental gymnastics I've heard IRL and on Lemmy. If they edit their comment to add that very necessary qualifier, I'll happily throw 'em an upvote. As-is, I genuinely have no idea.
I for sure hear you on the insane takes flying around! From the context it looked pretty clear to me that they were tagging on to your post rather than trying to contradict it, but who knows.
Posting sarcasm about a controversial topic without a "/s" tag is like fucking without a condom... it carries a risk, but sometimes you just gotta do what feels right!
our best bet was in the primaries in 2020. from there it's all been about our best opportunities to keep trump away from power regardless. i know america sucks. i live here, too. but to act like voting for the lesser of two evils in a binary choice election was worse than letting trump have power is to dissengage from the fact that this is america. this is how the system is stacked against us. you don't get to just magically not be part of it because you don't like it. there was nothing stopping you from organizing resistance under kamala. but there's plenty of violence under trump that's making it hard to organize.