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[-] AllonzeeLV@lemmy.world 387 points 6 months ago* (last edited 6 months ago)

I'm a leftist, not a libertarian, but I always feel compelled to bring up a specific point in Snowden's defense when he is mentioned to divisive opinions:

He did speak up correctly, using the correct channels, and the proper channels told him to shut the fuck up.

Then he again did what he did the rightest way he could, by giving the data to one of the oldest members of the fourth estate, the press, to decide proper course, ONLY AFTER the primary state failed him spectacularly.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fourth_Estate

[-] madcaesar@lemmy.world 12 points 6 months ago

Do you know why he had to out himself? Why didn't he give stuff to the papers and stay hidden?

[-] franklin@lemmy.world 19 points 6 months ago

They were state secrets with a very well documented list of individuals to which it had been disclosed and he was documented as having had taken issue with the program. It's reasonable that it would be traced back to him and that he would not be given protections or a fair trial.

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[-] henfredemars@infosec.pub 141 points 6 months ago

This work survey is anonymous and won't be associated with any identifying information. Feel free to voice your authentic opinions.

[-] haulyard@lemmy.world 65 points 6 months ago

Proceeds to login via OKTA to access survey.

[-] AdmiralShat@programming.dev 43 points 6 months ago

"I don't feel strongly about anything" if it's required, deleted email if it's not

[-] henfredemars@infosec.pub 30 points 6 months ago

At work, you keep your opinions to yourself.

It doesn't matter if you are asked for your opinion by your boss, in an "anonymous" survey, or by a co-worker at a seemingly innocuous kids birthday party. There are no friends in business. Stick to business. Anything you say can and will be used against you.

I'm not a very political person. I don't have strong feelings about it sir. Taking care of business is my priority.

Stay safe out there folks.

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[-] doublejay1999@lemmy.world 9 points 6 months ago

I neither agree nor disagree.

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[-] mctoasterson@reddthat.com 112 points 6 months ago

He revealed massive warrantless domestic surveillance. The 1700s equivalent would be if the post office made copies of every single letter everyone sent and then promised not to read them unless the sender or recipient was one day subject to a valid warrant. Whoever revealed this info would've been a hero and a patriot back then, and it should be the same today.

Snowden leaked his info about these programs more than a decade ago. If that is what the three-letter agencies and big tech were capable of doing in secret then, just imagine the shady shit they're doing now.

[-] SpaceCowboy@lemmy.ca 16 points 6 months ago

Read the Cuckoo's Egg from 1989. NSA were at the very least tapping all international calls in the 1980s.

The people that cared knew about this for a long time.

All Snowden did was give up sensitive intel to foreign adversaries and got NSA capabilities that anyone that cared already knew about talked about more in the media.

And nothing has really changed. There's no international law against this so there's nothing preventing Russia and China from looking at your data. There's also nothing prevent five eyes countries from spying on each other's citizens and sharing it back with the country whose citizens they spied on. Do you feel better that the NSA is spying on Canadians while Canadians spy on US citizens and the two countries exchange what they have on each other's citizens?

If that is what the three-letter agencies and big tech were capable of doing in secret then, just imagine the shady shit they’re doing now.

They would have all data that any company has about you that has been sold to a marketing company. It's trivial to create a shell company posing as a ad agency and legally buy all that data. And given the enshittification of everything there is data on basically everything you do. You buy groceries with a loyalty card? It's on an NSA database being analyzed by an AI for suspicious activity. You didn't read the fine print when you got that loyalty card that said they would share the data to third parties? It means the data will be shared to anyone that's willing to pay them for it, and that includes the NSA. Why do you think they were giving you that discount? Because they're nice? Nope, it's because they can sell your data.

This is happening because it's the job of the NSA to gather data for intelligence purposes. They will sponge up any data they can legally obtain. And if you agree to data being shared with third parties, you've agreed that the data can be shared with the NSA. So it is.

So now you understand that the NSA is likely doing these things because they can, do we need another traitor to hand over classified data to foreign adversaries to make you aware of it?

[-] Cataphract@lemmy.ml 13 points 6 months ago* (last edited 6 months ago)

Do you feel better that the NSA is spying on Canadians while Canadians spy on US citizens and the two countries exchange what they have on each other’s citizens?

but then,

do we need another traitor to hand over classified data to foreign adversaries to make you aware of it?

Government doing it in secret vs a citizen exposing it? I'm going to back my fellow citizen in this one.

This is happening because it’s the job of the NSA to gather data for intelligence purposes. They will sponge up any data they can legally obtain. And if you agree to data being shared with third parties, you’ve agreed that the data can be shared with the NSA. So it is.

That's some serious bootlicking there, you think they're only collecting "legally" obtained information? Let's also gloss over the anti-consumer practices that companies employ to obtain that sweet third party data on you.

"you’ve agreed that the data can be shared with the NSA. So it is." - JFC you have some weird logic going on in your head. Let's just forget what's required in today's society, the data that has to be shared to perform basic functions like employment now adays. The average citizen is not a privacy expert and no one is educated in K-12 to be consensual informed.

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[-] the_post_of_tom_joad@sh.itjust.works 10 points 6 months ago

I just spent the entire time reading this just aghast at the audacity for you to voice an opinion like this in 2024, with rising fascism throughout the world.

How deeply under a rock must your mole-hill have been built, how jingoistic and nationalistic must one become to have such... such a collosally naive take? I am so angry with you right now.

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[-] Rascabin@lemmy.ml 11 points 6 months ago

Watching us via the front camera while we poop?

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[-] the_post_of_tom_joad@sh.itjust.works 103 points 6 months ago

I still remember when everything came out and so much FUD was out there calling him a traitor.

I think to this day a large chunk of folks have no idea the breadth of what he told us and what he gave up to do so.

I couldn't do it, i don't think

[-] lobut@lemmy.ca 53 points 6 months ago* (last edited 6 months ago)

I remember a lot of it was weird. It's was like he "only" had a high school diploma and his ex-girlfriend was a model. Like the most pointless crap you've heard of. He's a patriot, he saw a lot of bad crap going on. He tried to report it and then he gave up his freedom to let us know. I'm not sure I could do it either.

[-] aidan@lemmy.world 8 points 6 months ago

Yeah, and any programmer knows how much important software is written by people with "only" a highschool diploma

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[-] LemmyKnowsBest@lemmy.world 17 points 6 months ago

I still don't understand why he had to leave the country and can never come back,

and where is he anyway? Who is taking care of him? How does he earn money to survive? What is he doing?

[-] Anticorp@lemmy.world 32 points 6 months ago

Last I heard he's in Russia because everywhere else was going to extradite him, and Russia was stoked to have him in the country as a big FU to the USA.

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[-] __dev@lemmy.world 25 points 6 months ago

He immediately got charged under the Espionage Act. If he didn't leave or if he came back he'd be tried, without a jury, and get either life in prison or the death penalty.

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[-] index@sh.itjust.works 80 points 6 months ago

Instead of arguing about the guy why don't people simply focus on what he leaked?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PRISM

[-] 4lan@lemmy.world 55 points 6 months ago

his persecution is the distraction from the crimes he exposed.

They tell us he endangered our operatives, yet not one example has surfaced in over a decade. You know they would be shouting that shit from every rooftop if it happened.

This is how the USA treats heroes. We persecute them for exposing our evil.

[-] ExfilBravo@lemmy.world 9 points 6 months ago

What's funny about this picture is Obama was seeking his extradition for the leaks. I'd still vote for him again though.

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[-] Iceman@lemmy.world 13 points 6 months ago

It's a contious effort to distract from the leaks. Same tactic was used for Chelsea Manning and Julian Assange.

[-] Suavevillain@lemmy.world 49 points 6 months ago

I have nothing but respect for Edward Snowden.

[-] distantsounds@lemmy.world 48 points 6 months ago

IDK what this has to do with Libertarianism, but I agree with the meme

[-] PropaGandalf@lemmy.world 24 points 6 months ago

Free speech isn't exclusive to libertarianism but it is truly a core value of that philosophy

[-] HLMenckenFan@lemmy.world 36 points 6 months ago

#FreeSnowden

[-] SeabassDan@lemmy.world 32 points 6 months ago

"No, we mean stuff about the bad guys. Not us."

[-] DogPeePoo@lemm.ee 26 points 6 months ago

“Not like that…”

[-] hobsbawm_goblin@lemmy.world 23 points 6 months ago

Luckily he was able to escape Russia safely. If he stayed in the US he would've been tortured just like Chelsea Manning and Assange.

[-] aidan@lemmy.world 8 points 6 months ago

Did Manning allege torture?

[-] Xtallll 10 points 6 months ago* (last edited 6 months ago)

From what I remember in her memoir, she said she pent about 2 months in what was essentially a holding cell in Kuait after she was arrested, with little to no stimulation, and limited human interaction.

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[-] 4lan@lemmy.world 9 points 6 months ago* (last edited 6 months ago)

our re-definition of 'torture' excludes waterboarding, hog-tying, force-feeding, and sexual assault.

According to the federal government even the people at Guantanamo weren't tortured.

We literally torture people who have never been seen by a judge. This country is fucking evil

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[-] mryessir@lemmy.sdf.org 22 points 6 months ago

For EU citizens: https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=CELEX%3A32019L1937

The states shall provide a secure and anonymous channel to enabling safe whistleblowing. A software for this is globaleaks.org

A state should provide a channel to anonymously blow the whistle. Then, this information is forwarded to the correct authorities.

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[-] banghida@lemm.ee 21 points 6 months ago

He killed his rep with the whole Bitcoin thing he's pushing.

[-] MrFunnyMoustache@lemmy.ml 57 points 6 months ago

Pretty sure he does that because he wants to limit the governments' power to control people's finances, which from his perspective after seeing how untrustworthy these powerful institutions are, I can understand his desire for it. I don't agree with him on cryptocurrency stuff, but I do understand his perspective and how one would come to that conclusion.

[-] banghida@lemm.ee 20 points 6 months ago* (last edited 6 months ago)

I understand his view but I just can't fathom how could someone be pro Bitcoin in the context. Giving power over the financial system to criminal cartel(s) (who provenly control Bitcoin) is ludacris. Thankfully the cartel has no intent to run the future of finance whatsoever, just to extract as much USD as possible before they are shut down.

Edit: Yes, downvote me that will help your bags.

[-] nexguy@lemmy.world 35 points 6 months ago

No one can control bitcoin... which is the point. Any change has to be decided by a 95% super majority of miners.

[-] banghida@lemm.ee 12 points 6 months ago

That's a meme. Anyways, that's not what I am saying. The cartel does not need to bother with consensus, cartel controls the price and thus the money flow. The network security of the Bitcoin network is dependent on the cartel and their actions. Due to nature of PoW.

[-] nexguy@lemmy.world 14 points 6 months ago

If cartels can afford to control the price of btc then they would not waste time with something like btc. They would control far more important parts of the financial market.

[-] banghida@lemm.ee 9 points 6 months ago

Unfortunately, wall street does not take tethers. Binance does.

[-] hark@lemmy.world 10 points 6 months ago

I don't know why you're getting downvoted. People think bitcoin cannot possibly be controlled because it'd take a lot of hardware power to override blockchain entries, but there are other ways to control it. Tether is one good example where the value of that is supposedly backed by underlying assets which include... bitcoin. So they're buying bitcoin with tether and tether is deriving part of its supposed value from bitcoin. Tether hasn't been audited and they're free to print however many tethers they want. Yeah, that's not insane at all...

[-] MrFunnyMoustache@lemmy.ml 15 points 6 months ago

Personally I am more bothered by the environmental impact that cryptocurrencies have than some cartels, but both are valid reasons to be against cryptocurrency. Also the whole crypro-bro culture and the number of scams with every new crypto is exhausting to keep up with.

P.S. I did not downvote you.

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[-] ikidd@lemmy.world 48 points 6 months ago

Yah, espousing interest in one thing completely invalidates anything else one says on any other subject.

Ok, buddy.

[-] crystalmerchant@lemmy.world 18 points 6 months ago

No not like that

[-] Socsa@sh.itjust.works 15 points 6 months ago

Let's be honest here - Snowden helped build the surveillance state under Bush, and only developed a conscience when the wrong guy got elected.

[-] Huschke@lemmy.world 18 points 6 months ago

To be fair there could be a variety of reasons why it took him some time to speak up.

  • fear of what would happen to him
  • being too naive to realize what he was doing
  • ...
[-] MystikIncarnate@lemmy.ca 11 points 6 months ago

I don't think we should discount the fear here. Unless Snowden had a fortune tucked away somewhere, blowing the whistle was a sure fire way to blow up your career and make yourself homeless.

I'm also sure he didn't just walk into the bureau and get handed everything on day 1.

I'm also sure it took some time to exfil the data. Most companies have policies that can make it difficult to legitimately walk off premise with information, I can only imagine how much more difficult it would be to do that with anything government related, nevermind federal, nevermind something considered to be secret by the country...

Simply put, there's a lot of hurdles to get over, and doing so carefully enough to not get caught until you have what you want to blow the whistle on, may take a very very long time.

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this post was submitted on 25 Feb 2024
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libertarianism

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