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submitted 7 months ago by Ninjazzon@infosec.pub to c/linux@lemmy.ml

Ubuntu's popularity often makes it the default choice for new Linux users. But there are tons of other Linux operating systems that deserve your attention. As such, I've highlighted some Ubuntu alternatives so you can choose based on your needs and requirements—because conformity is boring.

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[-] cbarrick@lemmy.world 95 points 7 months ago

From an engineering perspective, I prefer Debian distros. Apt is the greatest package manager ever built. For a production server, I'd choose Debian or maybe Ubuntu if I needed to pay someone for support.

But for a desktop, Ubuntu kinda sucks. These days, I think I'd recommend Fedora to Linux noobs.

And for my toys at home, I run Arch btw.

[-] Sidewalker@lemm.ee 68 points 7 months ago

Heard. Debian in the streets, Arch in the sheets!

[-] n2burns@lemmy.ca 19 points 7 months ago

What about Ubuntu derivatives for desktop? My go to recommendations are Pop! OS and Linux Mint (which I use).

[-] CurbsTickle@lemmy.world 15 points 7 months ago

Linux Mint Debian Edition is my standard recommendation for desktop for those newer folks.

Straight up Debian for everything else. Debian is my desktop. And all of my servers (aside from some things I'm testing for work or something where I need to test against RHEL or something).

And Proxmox for VMs.

[-] los_chill@programming.dev 8 points 7 months ago

Pop! Os user going on a year now and I can't recommend it enough, at least as a first distro.

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[-] Kalcifer@sh.itjust.works 16 points 7 months ago

Apt is the greatest package manager ever built.

What's your rationale for making that claim?

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[-] sep@lemmy.world 11 points 7 months ago

I was fighting rpm hell on redhat for the 3rd or 4th time using red hat linux 5 to 6 or perhaps 6 to 7. When i first installed debian potato on my daily driver. We had 20 ish servers, but the constant hunt for the right combo of rpm's made me distro jump my own machine. A while later i was floored when i could apt-get full-upgrade to the next debian version without rpm hell and almost everything just worked. Never installed another redhat machine and have been using debian + kde ever since. And 99,3% of all servers i maintain are now debian. A few odd ubuntu machines for $$reasons.

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[-] 2xsaiko@discuss.tchncs.de 10 points 7 months ago

Apt is the greatest package manager ever built.

Urgh, no, it's not. Everything about it is super crusty if you go beyond simply installing packages and adding others' PPAs IMO.

  1. Packages often enable the services they install right away. Someone told me they got locked out over SSH because they installed a firewall package that locked everything down by default, and the service got started on install. I guess that's technically more of an issue with the way things are packaged rather than the package manager itself, though.
  2. To temporarily install a package (so that it will get uninstalled with the next autoremove) you need to use aptitude to install the package, or run apt-mark auto after installing (which will also clear the manually installed flag if it was manually installed before), apt has no syntax for it.
  3. dpkg-scanpackages is eternally slow, I had to write a wrapper for it that runs it separately for every package and caches the result because I didn't want to wait multiple minutes for it to rebuild the PPA package index
  4. The standard packaging tools (dh-make or debuild, I think I've looked at both) are insane, so much so that I gave up and wrote something that takes files similar to Arch PKGBUILDs which calls dpkg-deb at the very end.

I could probably list more but I haven't had to touch apt in a while, thankfully. But it is probably the #1 reason I avoid anything Debian-based. #2 is probably their Frankenstein sysvinit/systemd setup.

I do have to say that apt remove vs purge is pretty cool though.

What do you like about it?

[-] cbarrick@lemmy.world 8 points 7 months ago* (last edited 7 months ago)

Packages often enable the services they install right away.

That's a problem of the package, not the package manager.

Generally this fits with Debian's philosophy. But regardless I think it's out-of-scope for why Apt is good. You could make a distro with Apt and not have your packages do this.

To temporarily install a package [...]

I'm not talking about apt the CLI tool, but the actual package manager. The plain apt tool is only designed to be a convenience wrapper for common workflows implemented in other tools.

As you correctly pointed out, Apt has the distinction between packages installed as a dependency ("auto installed") versus packages installed directly ("manually installed"). This is precisely one of the reasons why I consider Apt the best package manager. (Yes, I know other package managers can do this, not all though.)

If you want to install a package as manual, then later mark it as auto, you can do that with apt-mark.

dpkg-scanpackages is eternally slow.

Are you maintaining a PPA for others?

Frankly, I've never run into this problem.

The standard packaging tools [...] are insane.

dh_make helps you create a package that adheres to Debian policy, and there is good reason for Debian to have those policies. But if you're just packaging something yourself, you don't have to use it. It's just a template for new packages.

At the end of the day, all you really need to create a deb is to create two files debian/control and debian/rules. These are the equivalent to a PKGBUILD. The control file specifies all of the dependency metadata, and the rules file contains the install script.

The difference in packaging philosophy is that PKGBUILDs are external and they download the upstream sources. On the other hand, in Debian, they rehost the upstream package and add the debian directory. This means that building Debian packages is mostly hermetic: you don't need access to the network.

What do you like about it?

Mostly that it makes super useful distinctions between concepts. But there are other goodies.

  • Manually installed versus auto installed.
  • Uninstalled versus purged.
  • Upgrade versus Dist Upgrade.
  • Dependency versus suggestion versus recommendation.
  • The alternatives system.
  • Pinning, and relatedly that packages can include version constraints in their dependencies.
  • Interactive configuration at install time.
  • Support for both source and binary packages.

I also do appreciate that Debian pre-configures packages to work together with the same set of conventions out of the box. But again, that's a property of the packages, not of Apt.

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[-] cypherpunks@lemmy.ml 60 points 7 months ago* (last edited 7 months ago)
[-] nooneshere@discuss.tchncs.de 10 points 7 months ago

Slackware is a garbage distro purely because it doesn't have a functional package manager supporting dependency resolution

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[-] Potatos_are_not_friends@lemmy.world 37 points 7 months ago

The problem with going for alternatives is support.

Imagine picking a random Linux flavor, then trying to figure out how to change settings, only to get either hundreds of different answers.

[-] FrostyPolicy@suppo.fi 26 points 7 months ago

Depends on the alternative. E.g. Fedora and OpenSuse have very active communities and lots of help available.

[-] sxan@midwest.social 15 points 7 months ago

You're not going to get a telephone number you can call, but the documentation maintained by Arch is far superior to that offered by Ubuntu. If support is your biggest concern, you're far better served by Arch.

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[-] dog_@lemmy.world 34 points 7 months ago* (last edited 7 months ago)

Ubuntu isn't your only option

Thumbnail shows Pop!_OS which is a fork of Ubuntu.

[-] caseyweederman@lemmy.ca 12 points 7 months ago* (last edited 7 months ago)

For now. They're switching to Debian.
Edit: I think I was thinking of Linux Mint?
Edit again: I was wrong twice, it was Vanilla.
https://linuxiac.com/vanilla-os-announces-major-shift-moving-from-ubuntu-to-debian/

[-] kautau@lemmy.world 13 points 7 months ago

New article: Debian isn’t your only option

[-] caseyweederman@lemmy.ca 10 points 7 months ago

Yeah but it's the best one

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[-] WeAreAllOne@lemm.ee 30 points 7 months ago

No one ever recommends OpenSuse....

[-] ricdeh@lemmy.world 17 points 7 months ago

I am kind of afraid of the corporate influence on OpenSUSE. Same for the relationship between Ubuntu and Canonical

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[-] atzanteol@sh.itjust.works 9 points 7 months ago
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[-] aarRJaay@lemmy.world 26 points 7 months ago

Anyone else notice that the first three are Ubuntu?

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[-] BaumGeist@lemmy.ml 26 points 7 months ago

Y'all seriously overestimate thr average user:

Debian. It's simple, stable, minimal upkeep, rarely if ever has breaking changes, and all this out of the box.

Someone new doesn't need to be thrown in the deep end for their first foray into linux, they want an experience like windows or mac: simple interface, stable system, some potential for getting their hands dirty but not too much to worry about breaking

[-] TBi@lemmy.world 12 points 7 months ago

Debian? First time i installed it wanted to use CD for packages instead of online. Don’t know why. Second time it didn’t have wireless drivers as these were non free.

It’s a great distro but not for newbies.

Fedora all the way!

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[-] bionicjoey@lemmy.ca 9 points 7 months ago

Debian is in many ways the "deep end". A big part of its development philosophy is prioritizing their weirdly rigid definition of Free Software and making it hard to install anything that doesn't fit that. I'm not saying it's not a good distro, but IDK if it's beginner friendly.

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[-] Harbinger01173430@lemmy.world 9 points 7 months ago

Normal users want that potential for getting their hands dirty to be zero at best

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[-] captain_aggravated@sh.itjust.works 26 points 7 months ago

Ubuntu used to have the mission of being Linux For The Masses. Their marketing material used to include a bunch of trendy diverse young people standing on their logo. I'm pretty sure they've completely abandoned that cause in favor of trying to out-corporate RHEL. Their present-day web page has more corporate logos on it than the starting grid at a NASCAR race, and I challenge you to find the link to download "Normal Ubuntu for normal desktops."

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[-] ShortN0te@lemmy.ml 25 points 7 months ago

Manjaro: Reliable and Cutting-Edge Features

Rarly laughed that hard. Reliably is by defenition wrong. Manjaro delays packages a few days in their main compared to Arch this can cause issues and makes them not compatible with the AUR which one of the most advertised and enabled by default feature.

You can read more about other problems here, https://github.com/kruug/manjarno

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[-] z3rOR0ne@lemmy.ml 20 points 7 months ago

Well as a psychopath, I always recommend beginners start with Gentoo. Guaranteed they won't go back to Mac or Windows. /s

[-] cbarrick@lemmy.world 19 points 7 months ago

By starting the switch to Gentoo, they either learn Linux well enough to never want to go back, or they fubar their system so bad that they can't go back.

[-] bunjix@lemmy.world 9 points 7 months ago

Back in early 2000s I ran Gentoo as daily driver for a year, while almost a Linux noob, but eager to learn. Installation instructions were long, but excellent.

It was fun, and worked well, but in the end the long compilation times got the better of me. Now I heard they are including binary packages, so the itch is coming back.

Right now running opensuse tumbleweed, which works fine, sometimes too smoothly.

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[-] NaoPb@eviltoast.org 18 points 7 months ago

I wish howtogeek would change back to their old ms paint logo.

[-] Falcon@lemmy.world 17 points 7 months ago

So Ubuntu, Ubuntu and unstable arch… here let me have a go:

  1. Fedora
  2. Tumbleweed
  3. Endeavour OS
  • easy install arch with extra repos, zfs and and dracut
  1. Bonus for the curious
  • void
  • Redcore Gentoo
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[-] Ganbat@lemmyonline.com 16 points 7 months ago

Recommending Pop_OS! to newbies

That might just be the quickest way to make someone hate Linux forever. The glitchiest, most troublesome install I've ever tried to do. In the end, after two days of work just to get the damn live image to boot, the only reason I kept going was probably sunken cost falacy.

[-] sekhat@lemmy.temporus.me 13 points 7 months ago

Funny. The one time I installed it, I just stuck it on a usb, booted from it, started the installer, next, next, done.

I really didn't have much of a different experience between installing pop os Vs Ubuntu.

I guess some weird hardware thing that Pop OS doesn't provide for?

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[-] TronNerd82@lemmy.ml 15 points 7 months ago

My personal recommendations for beginner distros:

-OpenSUSE

-Fedora

-EndeavourOS

-KDE Neon

-ElementaryOS

-Zorin OS

-Linux Mint

Or you could just install ordinary Debian, since it's stable and well-supported. Kind of a GOAT among distros, alongside Slackware.

[-] witx@lemmy.sdf.org 10 points 7 months ago

imho Debian is far from beginner friendly. They will end up with a laptop without WiFi.

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[-] BmeBenji@lemm.ee 15 points 7 months ago* (last edited 7 months ago)

“New to Linux? Where the most daunting thing about switching to it is how many choices you have in configuration? Well, good news! You have more choices than you think!”

[-] devilish666@lemmy.world 14 points 7 months ago

Well many search engine results recommended ubuntu for newbie.
I remembered the first time i used linux (15 years ago), i choose ubuntu because google recommended it & it has very nice UI compared to other linux that time

[-] erwan@lemmy.ml 15 points 7 months ago

Ubuntu was the first distribution trying to release a consistent OS, rather than throwing every Linux software possible and letting the user choose.

Also they provided graphical tools for everything, in a user friendly way and consistent with the rest of the Desktop.

But nowadays most mainstream distributions propose that anyway.

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[-] jaschen@lemm.ee 11 points 7 months ago

Not the first time trying Linux, but the first time in the last 10 years since I tried it and I'm digging Mint. Still has problems with my Logitech steering wheel and Logitech mouse, but overall not bad.

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[-] M500@lemmy.ml 11 points 7 months ago

To any Linux curious users,

I consider myself to be an intermediate Linux user. I have hosted applications and services on Linux servers in the cloud and use it as my primary operating system. I recommend Linux Mint. If you have an nvidia GPU, then I recommend PopOS as they have a version that has nvidia drivers pre-installed.

When I first started with Linux, I thought that Mint was less capable than other distros as it was the most user friendly. But I learned that you can do anything you want with any Linux distro. It is just that Mint is the least likely to give you trouble with random things.

With that all being said, you will have far fewer issues with Linux than you will with Windows.

Additionally, you can get legit troubleshooting steps for linux that actually work. With Windows it seems that there are 100 ways to possibly fix an issue and they feel like patching a sinking boat.

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[-] Pantherina@feddit.de 8 points 7 months ago

Ubuntu is not even good in my opinion. At least not as a normie Distro.

Yes they have lots of docs online but "it is good because people think it is good" is not a good argument.

If you dont like GNOME I guess you will have a harder life anyways, as Distros with KDE are just a really hard task. Like anything stable is not a good idea, I at least reported 30 bugs that will never get backported fixes.

The fact that appimages are broken on Ubuntu is like the only thing that I completely understand and dont care about. Appimages needs to get their stuff together.

I hope many projects will convert from Appimage to Flatpak

https://github.com/trytomakeyouprivate/Appimage-To-Flatpak

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[-] sentient_loom@sh.itjust.works 8 points 7 months ago

distrowatch.org

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this post was submitted on 10 Feb 2024
504 points (100.0% liked)

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