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submitted 1 year ago by throws_lemy@lemmy.nz to c/world@lemmy.world
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[-] theKalash@feddit.ch 314 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

Shitty headline. That is ONLY if Russia gets to keep the annexed territories:

However, if ending the war would include Russia returning the territories that it has occupied and annexed throughout the conflict, only a third (34 percent) of respondents said they would support that decision.

[-] Moonrise2473@feddit.it 105 points 1 year ago

LOL if the question is like that ("would you stop the war as a winner keeping all the lands and cease the sanctions") then what the other 30% of people is thinking?

"Keep fighting because I enjoy watching it on the news?"

[-] Ghost33313@kbin.social 68 points 1 year ago

I would wager 100% of people surveyed would not want to go to jail for giving the wrong answer too.

[-] flipht@kbin.social 10 points 1 year ago

Jail or the front lines.

[-] ImFresh3x@sh.itjust.works 4 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

So why did 34% respond otherwise?

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[-] Kecessa@sh.itjust.works 17 points 1 year ago

Keep going until all of Ukraine is annexed?

[-] SHITPOSTING_ACCOUNT@feddit.de 8 points 1 year ago

I think it's clear to everyone that that is not going to happen.

[-] DarkGamer@kbin.social 8 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

To those of us with access to media that isn't pure Russian propaganda, anyway. I suspect Russians without VPN access, (which I believe they recently outlawed,) have a very distorted view of the state of the world.

[-] SHITPOSTING_ACCOUNT@feddit.de 4 points 1 year ago

The fact that the frontline hasn't significantly moved for over a year, aside from Kherson, should be obvious even from Russian propaganda. (Btw, this also shows that something major needs to happen if Ukraine is to get its territory back)

[-] DarkGamer@kbin.social 7 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

I really wish Ukrainian allies had given them jets and long-range missiles sooner. Were I in their shoes, I'd give Ukraine the capability of damaging Russian infrastructure and fuck up the supply lines all the way to their source if need be. Make it clear to the average Russian that going with the plan is more dangerous for them than resisting their autocrat. Time is of the essence, every second of delay can be measured in lives.

[-] CaptainBlagbird@lemmy.world 40 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

And also it states that

70 percent of Russians would support Putin should he decide to end the conflict this week.

It doesn't necessarily mean that they want to end the war, only that they would support Putin's decision...

[-] HuddaBudda@kbin.social 13 points 1 year ago

You cannot ask direct questions like: Do you want to overthrow the dictator? And expect a realistic answer in a dictatorship.

You also cannot ask a question like: Should Russia keep it's territories? Because if you are in a dictatorship, you can go to prison for the wrong answer.

You can lose your job if what you say can be taken from the wrong context.

Merely the fear that such reprisal exists, means that the overwhelming population cannot answer truthfully, even if they wanted to.

So I would take these polls with a grain of salt.

[-] CodeMonkeyUK@lemmy.world 38 points 1 year ago

I don't think the war will end until Putin dies. Whether that be next week or in 20 years.

There's no way for Putin to retreat and save face. The world can't afford to allow Russia to win. It will be a horrible stalemate of slaughter until Putin dies and can be blamed by both sides, to be able to negotiate a way out.

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[-] Draedron@lemmy.dbzer0.com 34 points 1 year ago

lol I knew I saw the exact opposite headline somewhere. "Majority of russians dont want an end to ukraine war if needed to release territories" or something like that

[-] Resol@lemmy.world 65 points 1 year ago

I'm kinda guessing they've never wanted that war to happen in the first place, they probably simply can't express that without being arrested or something.

Those who support the war are probably brainwashed by propaganda.

[-] scarabic@lemmy.world 34 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

There are actually Russians who I’ve heard say things like “Crimea is ours anyway,” and “Ukraine is supposed to be a part of Russia.” And I’m talking about Russian emigres in America who are not looking over their shoulders.

It’s not everyone. Mostly blowhard assholes but they do exist. The Russian people aren’t all sitting there thinking the right things but keeping their lips sealed.

[-] vxx@lemmy.world 20 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

The second sentence of this article is stating that only 30% of Russians want to end the war if they have to give back annexed regions of Ukraine.

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[-] SuddenDownpour@sh.itjust.works 9 points 1 year ago

Every country has a lot of idiotic nationalists, especially those which have an glorified, imperialist past. What matters is how much suffering are they willing to impose upon themselves to satisfy the demands of their collective narcissism, and Russians who live abroad aren't going to be the ones suffering it the most.

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[-] Annoyed_Crabby@monyet.cc 28 points 1 year ago

However, if ending the war would include Russia returning the territories that it has occupied and annexed throughout the conflict, only a third (34 percent) of respondents said they would support that decision.

Russia has maintained that any peace deal must include "the entry of four [Ukrainian] regions into Russia," something that Kyiv is unlikely to budge on.

Lmao why does it sounds so familiar

[-] DarkGamer@kbin.social 4 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

Lmao why does it sounds so familiar

Hard to compare these conflicts. Ultimately Russia is aggressively trying to annex land and gain sea access through conventional warfare, Israel is trying to keep their people safe from guerilla attacks, having defeated their aggressor in conventional warfare multiple times long ago. Ukraine is the underdog in their conflict and it appears they are winning, Palestine is the underdog in their conflict and they have no viable path to military victory.

[-] Annoyed_Crabby@monyet.cc 8 points 1 year ago

Nah, there's similarity between Russia and Israel. Israel want to annex Gaza, West Bank, and Jerusalem, but ultimately withdraw from Gaza due to both demographic issue and constant Hamas attack. But now they seems to reignite the plan, seeing that over the year they keep expanding their West Bank illegal settlement, and the current plan for Gaza's ethnic cleansing. One could even argue that "keeping people safe" is just a farce, considering having peace within the region is the best way to keep their people safe, yet the current administration is moving away from that, causing the tension to raise within the region.

The similarity extend to the country, down to the citizen's opinion. The aggressor(Russia/Israel) want to keep the land and won't give back, the underdog(Ukraine/Palestine Authority, not Hamas) want their land back and won't compromise.

Too bad the similarity end there, as Palestine Authority does not have much authority, as they're not and will not recognized as a state by Israel, even though they demand Palestine to recognize their state.

[-] DarkGamer@kbin.social 4 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

One could even argue that “keeping people safe” is just a farce, considering having peace within the region is the best way to keep their people safe, yet the current administration is moving away from that, causing the tension to raise within the region.

Clearly Hamas was responsible for breaking the peace in this most recent outbreak of hostilities. Not punching back is a losing move in terms of game theory.


Gaza’s ethnic cleansing.

That is a popular take, but it seems obvious to me that this is about creating distance from belligerent forces in Gaza who are unwilling to pacify themselves rather than ethnic cleansing. 20% of Israel's citizens are Arab/Palestinian with full rights, and they are not being driven away. Gaza, the West Bank, and Arab citizens of Israel are the same ethnic group but are each treated very differently due to the different threat levels they pose. It's clear to me this is about something else other than ethnicity.

Many people aren't aware, but when the shoe was on the other foot, when Arab league Palestinian ally, Jordan, annexed the west bank and Jerusalem, they were not shy about ethnic cleansing. They immediately set about driving out every Jew, destroying their structures with mortar fire, and denying them Jordanian citizenship.

"For the first time in 1,000 years not a single Jew remains in the Jewish Quarter. Not a single building remains intact. This makes the Jews' return here impossible"

"The operations of calculated destruction were set in motion. I Knew that the Jewish Quarter was densely populated with Jewish populations who caused their fighters a good deal of interference and difficulty. I embarked, therefore on shelling of the quarter with mortars creating harassment and destruction. Only for days after our entry into Jerusalem, the Jewish Quarter become their graveyard. Death and destruction reigned over it. As the down of May 28th was about to break, the Jewish Quarter emerged in convulsive cloud-a cloud of death and agony" -Abdullah el Tell, a commander of the Arab Legion
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamization_of_Jerusalem#Islamization_of_Jerusalem_under_Jordanian_rule

Today there are no Jewish citizens of Jordan.


The aggressor(Russia/Israel)

Israel may be on the advantageous side of asymmetrical warfare, but they are not the aggressors, at least not this time. They didn't start this conflict but I suspect they will end it, (as this is a long conflict there's plenty of examples of cassis belli for both sides, but if you look at the initial causes of this conflict, the earliest massacres in mandate Palestine, declaration of war on Israel over the 1948 UN borders, or the most recent flare-ups of violence, they were caused by Palestinian aggression.)


the underdog(Ukraine/Palestine Authority, not Hamas) want their land back and won’t compromise.

Ukraine has a viable path to military victory. Palestine does not, (Hamas, Fatah, PA, take your pick...) Ukraine is well aware of their realpolitik situation and has been handling itself very well accordingly. It makes sense for them to be uncompromising regarding annexed territories. Palestinian forces are ignoring their realpolitik situation, poking a bear they cannot defeat for the last century. Being uncompromising has led to their situation today and will likely be their downfall.


Palestine Authority does not have much authority, as they’re not and will not recognized as a state by Israel, even though they demand Palestine to recognize their state.

They don't have a lot of leverage but I suspect this is something they could include in a peace treaty if they are willing to pacify themselves and make viable concessions.

[-] Annoyed_Crabby@monyet.cc 4 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

Clearly Hamas was responsible for breaking the peace in this most recent outbreak of hostilities. Not punching back is a losing move in terms of game theory.

Not relevant to my point.

That is a popular take, but it seems obvious to me that this is about creating distance from belligerent forces in Gaza who are unwilling to pacify themselves rather than ethnic cleansing.

It can be both. It is both.

20% of Israel's citizens are Arab/Palestinian with full rights, and they are not being driven away.

"Maximum jew, minimum Palestine."

Gaza, the West Bank, and Arab citizens of Israel are the same ethnic group but are each treated very differently due to the different threat levels they pose. It's clear to me this is about something else other than ethnicity.

Yes, a nationalism one.

Many people aren't aware, but when the shoe was on the other foot, when Arab league Palestinian ally, Jordan, annexed the west bank and Jerusalem, they were not shy about ethnic cleansing. They immediately set about driving out every Jew, destroying their structures with mortar fire, and denying them Jordanian citizenship.

So you're not denying the current situation in Gaza is ethnic cleansing. Interesting.

Israel may be on the advantageous side of asymmetrical warfare, but they are not the aggressors, at least not this time.

Aggressor as in annexing the land of other nation and oppress the citizen within. Who started the war isn't relevant in my comparison, but if they aren't oppressed then this war wouldn't start either.

Palestinian forces are ignoring their realpolitik situation, poking a bear they cannot defeat for the last century. Being uncompromising has led to their situation today and will likely be their downfall.

This is true. Hamas is banking on the empathy the world has on the normal Palestinian and also the support of Iran, but that has backfired on them, causing a genocide.

They don't have a lot of leverage but I suspect this is something they could include in a peace treaty if they are willing to pacify themselves and make viable concessions.

Pacify. Heh. Hamas did not rule West Bank. Palestine Authority cannot arrest illegal settler for the violent and murder they cause. Palestine Authority cannot object on the building of illegal settlement. Palestine Authority need to have permission from Israel to travel anywhere outside, even to Jordan. Palestinian from West Bank cannot fight back the illegal settler else they would be shot. Palestinian cannot protest else they would be shot.

What sort of pacifying they need to do next? Worship the path every Israeli walk?

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[-] miridius@lemmy.world 28 points 1 year ago

Pretty important detail missing from the headline:

However, if ending the war would include Russia returning the territories that it has occupied and annexed throughout the conflict, only a third (34 percent) of respondents said they would support that decision.

[-] activ8r@sh.itjust.works 15 points 1 year ago

That's a pretty critical detail... The headline becomes incredibly misleading without it. It should read: "Overwhelming majority of Russians now want to win Ukraine war"

[-] pozbo@lemmy.world 21 points 1 year ago

I say we support ukraine until they raid Moscow and buttfuck putin with something sharp.

[-] c0mbatbag3l@lemmy.world 28 points 1 year ago

That's not the goal and the Ukrainians aren't going to waste their lives pushing to Moscow. They just want their country back, that's been there intent since day 1.

[-] pozbo@lemmy.world 9 points 1 year ago

Never claimed it was their plan, I was making a statement over how long I would support them and their struggle.

[-] GiddyGap@lemm.ee 16 points 1 year ago

Too bad they have no say

[-] Raz@lemm.ee 12 points 1 year ago

In other news: large amount of Russians fall from stairs and windows this week.

[-] biofaust@lemmy.world 10 points 1 year ago
[-] deafboy@lemmy.world 5 points 1 year ago

With all the territorial gains, if an article I've read here recently was right.

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[-] cabron_offsets@lemmy.world 7 points 1 year ago
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[-] boredtortoise@lemm.ee 6 points 1 year ago

I hope the majority of the world wants all wars to end. The ones in power don't

[-] rentar42@kbin.social 13 points 1 year ago

I'm afraid you're underestimating the effects of propaganda and nationalism. Those can do frightening things to normal humans.

[-] flipht@kbin.social 5 points 1 year ago

Propaganda, nationalism, and fear of what regressive shitheads will do if you vocalize any opposition

[-] boredtortoise@lemm.ee 4 points 1 year ago

I know. My hope is false hope

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this post was submitted on 02 Nov 2023
616 points (100.0% liked)

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