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Those promotion and raise promises are often not kept, so get them laid out in writing. If getting certified is part of your job then you should get paid for it in time and money.
I wish I had a better idea of industry norms. The company I originally worked at was willing to pay for udemy classes and similar and was known to put a couple of us up in important conferences where we could reap a lot of knowledge (and network.) Then we got bought and the new company doesn't pay for shit. Has an education "stipend" to reimburse you for things you pay out of pocket towards education/training, but it has a yearly cap.
I can't tell if I was privileged before the acquisition or just kind of fucked over afterwards.
I've had both. It's a good indicator of what the company really thinks of its employees.
Based on what you said, these are not required for you to do your job, only for you to improve your position. It is not unreasonable for you to use personal time for self-improvement. It's also not unreasonable for you to use company downtime for self-improvement.
Not just downtime. There should be room for training.
Employers aren't obligated to invest in you, but then you know how much you should invest in them.
1000% this. Spending even an entire work-day to go attend training is part of being in the work force. I'd be spending my personal time dusting off my resume.
You state "Getting certs is part of what is required for me to get bigger raises and get promoted and all that jazz." So this is not a required part of your CURRENT position. If you want a better position, you will need to invest in yourself, using some of your own time. Sounds like the employer is already paying for the courses and tests, the rest is now up to you.
Do not go in to your meeting with a bad attitude, you will just piss off your boss. Accept that if you want a promotion and higher pay that you are going to have to give up some personal time to get there. Remember, they've already given you time, and you failed, multiple times from what you wrote, so now it is time for you to hunker down and do it on your own time.
Exactly this. I would be ecstatic if my employer paid for my cert tests. I pay for them myself and study on my own time, then leverage them during annual reviews to show why I deserve promotions and raises.
For context, I went from homeless to six figures because of this kind of hustle. If you want to just tread water then do so, otherwise you need to put in the work on your own time.
I hate the idea of "personal" time. It doesn't belong to my job by default. It's all my personal time. If they want any of it they will need to pay.
FULLY AGREE.
I am lending my employer some of my personal time. Therefor if they want more, they need to pay for it. This ideology that you are owned by your company is shitty and needs to stop.
Generally they do and it's expected after you've obtained the certification with a raise. This is ongoing payment and will most likely exceed the hourly wage invested to obtain the cert
If your company, for which your boss is an agent and therefore part of, is ASKING YOU to get this cert, then the study is labor done as a part of you position. You need to be paid for this work.
If the company is only making it a prerequisite for advancement, and not asking you to get it per se, then reimbursement is reasonable.
If you happen to have a Union then check with them.
"Using my own time for work stuff is unacceptable to me, and I am prepared to quit this job and get a different one that doesn't ask me to work off the clock if you press this matter."
Don't try to reason them into accepting your way of thinking, just state your position and what you're willing to do to pursue it
Incidentally, if "I am prepared to quit this job" does not currently apply to you, you should not be having this conversation.
e; partial_acumen had a way better answer
“Using my own time for work stuff is unacceptable to me. It was not enumerated in the job listing when I was hired that off-clock unpaid work was required to keep this job and ~~I am prepared to quit this job and get a different one that doesn’t ask me to work off the clock if you press this matter~~ if the company terminates me for refusing to work unpaid off the clock I'd be happy to raise that with the Department of Labor for a case of wage theft.”
e2; this is all assuming you're ok with losing this job and waiting through a lawsuit and several years to get what you're owed by this employer
“Using my own time for work stuff is unacceptable to me. It was not enumerated in the job listing when I was hired that off-clock unpaid work was required to keep this job and ~~I am prepared to quit this job and get a different one that doesn’t ask me to work off the clock if you press this matter~~ if the company terminates me for refusing to work unpaid off the clock I'd be happy to raise that with the Department of Labor for a case of wage theft.”
FTFY
Now, understand in many jobs maintaining a level of knowledge is necessary, and skills age-out meaning they are no longer applicable to industry. If you don't have these new certs, you may not be able to get hired somewhere else because they require the current industry knowledge. You'll have to decide which battles you want to fight, and what you will do if the worst outcome affects you and you're out of work. Would you be forced to study and pass those certs anyway just to be eligible in your industry? If so, you can work toward compromise with your current employer as a shorter and less painful path.
To this end, you can challenge them on not letting you study on the clock during downtime. If these certs are as critical as they claim, then why are downtime hours not usable for cert study?
There's the magical term! God I fucking hate wage theft. OP, the company is trying to steal from you. Your time is money and if they're not paying you for work then they're, by definition, stealing from you.
I've had conversations like this before, and usually you only have to hint that it's wage theft for dumbfuck managers to realize and back down, especially if you're assertive but polite with them. If you're not getting anywhere with the manager, then you should go to HR. HR's job is to protect the company and the obviously correct move for an HR person is to keep the DoL out of the situation. If you go to HR and then get fired, then that may be even better evidence against the shitheads.
If you do go to HR, try to get your manager to admit to wage theft in a way that gives you evidence. If you can't get the manager to admit to wage theft on paper or electronically (which you should immediately back up), you're going to the DoL, and you live somewhere with one-party consent, then surreptitiously record your manager saying it. It may be against company policy to make this recording (and should be your last resort, don't go to HR with audio recordings!), but it's legal as long as your jurisdiction has one-party consent laws on the books.
Don't let them steal from you, OP. The other magic words that have already been mentioned in this thread are "fuck you, pay me."
I get that you guys are spelling things out for OP so they have an understanding of what their argument's foundation is, but going into the conversation with language like "it was not enumerated" and vague threats of reporting them to the authorities is probably not the best approach if OP actually wants to keep the job (which it sounds like they do).
My answer wasn't so much directed at OP but @gAlienLifeform@lemmy.world that had text threatening to quit. If OPs company wants them gone, threatening to quit plays right into their hands. Further, if you ever threaten and not follow through, you've lost any leverage in negotiating further changes.
with language like “it was not enumerated” and vague threats of reporting them to the authorities
To reiterate, I wasn't suggesting using that exact language I put in quotes but was attempting to show OP what was effectively being asked of them by their employer, and how it wasn't fair to what they agreed, and that there was legal recourse they had if it evolved to that. If you read the rest of my post it was laying out that taking extreme action like threatening to quit, failing to get the certs, or some such would likely result in them losing their job anyway and a better approach is to work with their employer to get some time on the clock for cert study, but also recognize that an absolutist approach can result in the worst situation for OP and likely require they get the certs anyway on their own time because the certs would be required by a new employer.
Nothing with OPs situation will be resolved in a single conversation with any one party at their employer. It will be a series of conversations with each laying out their requirements and hopefully arriving at a compromise where OP still works there, and OP's employer is satisfied with the effort toward certs.
"I don't feel it is in my personal benefit to spend my energy and time outside of work, chasing a end goal that will not favor me personally. This certificate was not a requirement for me being hired, and I am not being reimbursed for said spent time and energy. If this is something that the company is interested in pursuing, I am more than happy to continue working on it as long as I am reimbursed for my time. A chance at promotion with no compensation in current day, does not guarantee enough of a reward for it to be worth my time."
Know your worth OP, companies will burn you time and time if they think they can. Don't learn the hard way like I did, or my grandfather did (he did a masters degree fully out of pocket because there was an increase in pay involved + a massive bonus, the removed the bonus and halved the increase in pay the year he graduated). It's a well known scam used by employers in specialized fields to avoid having to actually pay for training and certs.
Additionally you may want to note that if they try to say that you need to cert to stay at the company, mention that in that case it's mandatory training and you are supposed to be paid for time spent, and if they refuse look into an employment lawyer for wage theft.
Continuous Professional Development (CPD) is a trait of professional careers. Do you think doctors, nurses, etc only study on work time?
If you're not in such a professional field, discuss remuneration for doing it in your free time as the company will benefit. You need to figure out how much you want for a raise, and if things fall through remind them you'll be more employable and you can go elsewhere after passing. Maybe even push for an early raise now to keep you as it seems they like you.
I don't know about medical professionals, but Professional Engineers do, in fact, often get reimbursed by their company for the cost of earning their PDH credits.
If the company doesn't pay me for a certification they want me to have, I will choose whatever certification/training to meet my requirements. If the cert is something I am interested, cool beans, otherwise the company can pound sand.
This is an intervention. All your posts are full of vitriol. You need to take some time out.
100%, I'll work on it at home, but you'll be paying me for my time...
Fuck you, pay me
using my own time for work shit is unacceptable.
Drop the word "shit" and you got it.
I'd use the word "shit," but I've already established a certain level of communication with my manager and colleagues.
Then you probably wouldn't have to ask on Lemmy how to express your objections. But OP did; so no "shit".
Tell your boss that the time when you aren't at work is the time when you do "the rest of my life." Tell them that your schedule is already very full and that what free time you do have is for downtime for resting and recuperating from the things that keep you busy. Politely but firmly let them know that you need to pursue work during work time.
"My other commitments don't leave time for studying enough to pass this certification test."
When they ask what the other commitments are:
"It's personal, and I'm not comfortable talking about it."
After repeated failures to pass a test, I do not think it is unreasonable for the business to stop paying for your attempts at a certification. Either directly via training sessions and testing fees, or indirectly via your working hours.
If the certs were not required, you have a point. If they are required to the point where OP has to have a discussion about not doing them with his boss, then the buisness needs to keep paying, drop the requirement or find new employees.
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You have the right to be compensated for time spent studying for work. And he has the right to fire you for using it so ineffectively that you continuously fail.
Sounds like they were already being paid and failing.
We get X hours per week work time and tests reimbursed after we pass. If we fail, it's on us. None are required, but free education and testing is great. Read a chapter or two each day, get more involved, won't kill you. Hell, might even help land you a better job.
Its your education and your career youre cheating. OP needs to eradicate from him/herself their childish folley.
Note that my certifications are globally recognized (Microsoft 365, cloud management, etc) not internal bullshit.
Your time is your time. Work time or things related to work are work hours. I will die on that hill.
I've seen some good responses here, definitely take their advice.
Unless you are willing to tell your boss to fuck off and go find another job, I don't think it's in your interest to tell him that. Someone with the mindset to tell you to study on your own time isn't going to take it very well.
Either say fuck the certification and promotions and don't study, or just study on work time surreptitiously, or suck it up and study on your own time to get the certifications to make yourself more valuable to get a job somewhere else where they don't have that sort of mindset.
In the end, if it's a valuable cert, that cert belongs to OP and can be used for future jobs, so personal time investment is acceptable.
If the cert is a "company cert" and is only usable within that company, then that's training for the job and should be provided on company time and dime.
If getting the cert is part of your goals or part of your work, then you need to tell your boss you are willing to put in the work during business hours. Anything work related outside of business hours requires overtime pay.
If these certs are not part of your goals/work, then I would suggest talking with your boss about incorporating them in.
Educations tends to be off the clock. I wouldn't expect them to let you work on schoolwork for a degree required for a promotion while on the clock either. My employer reimburses me for my continued education (CE) that's required to keep my licenses, but it's not something we get to work on during work.
This is ridiculous and not how most places function. Education benefits your employer and they get a ton of tax cuts and incentives. They even try to make you do it on your own time and get benefits like you had done it on their time. Don't let them.
Obviously they can cause trouble and not everyone can find a new job so it's a tough choice, but let's not normalize it. CE is different, thats a degree and youre only getting reimbursed because they have a tax incentive to do so. If the business isn't willing to invest in you they don't have to, but then you know you should stop investing in them.
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At my last job I was asked to get a certain cert as one of my yearly goals. When I asked for time to study, I was told to do it on my own time. I said "If you want me to do this on my own time, clearly it is optional and I'm not doing it." and then I didn't.
In my case there was no raise to be had from doing it though, so it was easier to refuse. Good luck!
because all of my coworkers and I keep failing these really hard tests, we aren't allow to study during downtime on the clock.
Well there's your answer. It sounds like they are tired of making losing investments.
Their employer hasn't made any investment if the employees have only been studying during downtime.
If a stock broker or insurance actuary had this sort of opinion they would be making 50k not 300k. When else would they study for their exams and certs?
If I as a PhD candidate didn’t work on my own time I will never get my PhD.
This seems like a /antiwork terminally online position to have. I agree in only giving bosses what we are required but this is for you to succeed.
I know all of one insurance actuary, and she has a study budget both in euros and hours.
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Not allowing you to study more as a result of failing a cert exam seems to be counterintuitive. I guess it would first depend on your current work relationship with your boss. If you have a good relationship and it’s easy to approach them about issues, I’d say ask them directly but respectfully. It would probably help to clarify your proposal (i.e. setting aside 30-60mins maybe at the tail end of your work day, and only on specific days of the week), so you’re just not coming in with a demand. Now obviously you have more pressure to pass the exams to justify it.
What is your field? What are the certs for?
If you need the cert to do your job they should compensate you (i.e. allow you to use company time). If it's not required then I would say I'm going to accept the risks of not becoming certified as the time investment is not feasible for me. Many people provide value staying in the same role for years and advancement, if it's a net negative to someone's overall well-being, should be optional at the employees discretion.
Read the title of this post oitloud to him.
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this post was submitted on 05 Mar 2025
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