280

What I have learned:

  • Russia has already won the Ukraine war
  • Which NATO started
  • A lot of people in the West think that Ukraine should surrender
  • Also Ukraine was the world's main provider of CSAM
  • Also Ukraine is exploited by the West but if they can unite with Russia then their economy and everything else will finally be alright

It's literally like a bizarro world and everyone is over there agreeing with it. I'm genuinely confused by, who even are these people (what is the mixture of Russian bots / Russian-aligned ordinary people / confused Westerners / some other explanation.)

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[-] Maggoty@lemmy.world 10 points 5 months ago

Unfortunately propaganda works. And the Russians have been working at it for a long time. To be fair, so has the West. There are absolutely Russians out there who believe in conspiracy theories we've spread.

The problem of course is that propaganda like this is self serving and generally impedes the progress of civil society. We can't recommend a change in our government without getting called a dirty commie and lumped in with these guys. Russians can't do it either, not without being called a Western traitor and arrested. And yes I realize those are two different outcomes, the point is the problem is just as hard to get around.

The amount of cognitive dissonance is massive. they proudly present their pronouns, completely ignoring that doing so would get them on the russian shitlist superfast. Also, just like with the OG nazis, the enemy is simultaneously strong and weak, stupid and cunning.

It's kinda sad. after the wall fell and russia started cooperating economically with the rest of europe i was a bit of a fan, but what Putin and his cronies have done to the country and their neighbours is inexcusable.

[-] arymandias@feddit.de 8 points 5 months ago* (last edited 5 months ago)

If this is a honest question I will try to give some honest context, I do not represent a Hexbear, so these are just some views that I have that make me sceptical of the narrative that currently exists.

After the cold war there were calls to establish a common security structure including Russia to try to ensure peace in Europe. Instead the US (with pressure from past satellite states of Moscow, Poland, Czechia, etc) chose to maintain NATO and on top of that invite everybody except Russia, many foreign policy experts already warned that this was a recipe for war, but wether it was malice or incompetence they were ignored. 

Fast forward to 2008 the US suggests inviting Ukraine (and Georgia) to NATO, and Russia makes extremely clear that this would not happen, that this was a red line for them. Now you can disagree with Russias right to say anything about the military alliances of its neighbours, but the fact that Russia is a military regional power with nukes is something you need to deal with. Again wether it was incompetence or malice is hard to say but the next 14 years are basically a chain of escalatory actions by the US combined with a series of stronger and stronger warnings from Russia that this would lead to war.

During the events themselves it is hard to judge as a civilian what exactly is happening in geopolitics, the US has a very clear trackrecord of treat inflation or simply lying about its true intentions or the truth on the ground. It could of course be that this is one of those rare cases where the US are truly the Good Guys™️ or it could be that this is a ploy to weaken a rival with the only price being the destruction of a country they don't care about and the death of hundreds of thousands of military age males they don't care about.

[-] mozz@mbin.grits.dev 6 points 5 months ago

See this seems perfectly coherent even if I don’t agree with a lot of it - I actually do agree with the idea that Russia is motivated by a desire to keep hostile alliances from creeping up literally to their border, in a way that’s not readily understood in the West and leads to things being provocative from Russia’s POV. But also, I think that’s often not the intent from the Western side, and I think the Magnitsky Act and the subsequent reigniting of the Cold War and Russia’s extensive interference with US domestic politics is also vital context, and I think the idea that the Ukraine war is a “ploy” that the US invented is very obviously not accurate. But like I say, sure, this is a coherent thing we could talk about as to why I do or don’t think it.

But none of that is what’s on the other side of the link up at the top. If there are people on hexbear / lemmygrad who think the kinds of things you just said, they are currently being drowned out by people who think Russia is on the verge of winning the war and anyway they’re just trying to help Ukraine and the West is trying to destroy Ukraine, and similar comically insane things, who will just get super hostile if anyone disagrees with them about any of it.

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this post was submitted on 03 Jun 2024
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