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Image description: Image shows batches 1, 2 and 3 sold out for the Ryzen 7 7840HS which costs $1,399.
For now both DIY and prebuild edition (all configurations) are in batch 4 which ships in late Q4 2023.
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this post was submitted on 18 Jul 2023
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I do badly want to like these.. but I don't see the point.
Repairability wise mid range ThinkPad is nearly as good. Only major difference is I think Framework claims they will release schematics... and as someone who actually does component level repairs I've seen promises like this work I've or twice, but then they stop maintaining their data or pays get hard to get rendering the gesture null.
Upgrade wise... I switch machines every 4 to 6 years... at which point the chassis has a bit of wear and tear.
Spec wise I buy what I need and add a little headroom with the ThinkPad.
Spare parts are good for ThinkPad and Lenovo actually has component replacement guides that no one seems to mention or know about.
And when I do upgrade I appreciate having a complete spare machine.
I think it's also not unreasonable to assume my style of buying and upgrading is not uncommon.
This leaves the Framework very few hardware advantages and nil price advantages.
I still think they're a great idea, but I don't see any practical benefit over a sensible alternative.
Genuine question... Have I missed anything?
Well, framework has one cool side-effect of their repair-friendly approach: their laptop mainboard can be used as an SBC. I've seen a few projects use it in this way, and I believe they even sell an official plastic case for it. It's a well-documented piece of computer hardware that is regularly refreshed and can be fitted easily into slim chassis.
Oh, and another cool thing is that their screens have magnetic bezels. ThinkPads are a PITA to fix if you just want to replace an LCD panel; framework makes it trivial to keep the upper chassis and only replace the part that's actually broken. That's the real pitch with Framework: replace anything easily and upgrade your computer for only the cost of the mainboard or socketable component. Some of their newer devices have a socketable PCIe expansion bay, which could be used for things like socketable GPU upgrades.
I just had a look at their motherboards, nearly AUD$1000 shipped for the cheapest available 12th gen board... board only.
Just bought a ThinkPad with 16gb dual channel and 1TB nvme for $60 less than this and it has an on-site warranty.
I love the idea but the pricing is insane.
Just pricing the minimum possible 16" machine came to AUD$2400 with no ram, no SSD, no OS, no numpad and no charger.
Add all this things, even self bought your looking at over $3k or even $4k if you want the GPU
I wish them luck... They're going to need it.
I just got a pre-order for one of the Framework 16's. The issue Framework has at the moment is scale. Lenovo has the size and customer base to produce an absolute insane number of laptops compared to Frameworks operation. So cost is going to be 30, 50 or even 100% more than the big boys like Asus, Lenovo or HP. They won't ever get that scale unless people believe in it and buy one.
However, there's one other thing which I justified my purchase with. I could buy a Lenovo ThinkPad X1 Extreme with the i7-2700H, 32gb of ram and a RTX 3050ti for $AUD4,929. Or I could buy the Framework 16 with Ryzen 7840HS, 32GB ram, Radeon 7700s for $AUD3,916. Both of these processors and GPUs are similarly speced, in fact I believe the benchmarks had the Framework slightly ahead, but the framework comes out over $AUD1000 cheaper. Yes the Thinkpad X1 Extreme is their uber premium model, but just as you pay a premium for Lenovo's business grade hardware, you pay a premium for Frameworks repairability.
As a person who works in e-waste, probably off by magnitide when it comes to how much companies with leasing divisions (Dell/HP/Lenovo) produces over companies that dont (Pc part manufacturers like Asus/MSI/Gigabyte). Its obscene how much desktops/laptops go straight to resale/recycling.
Just popped that Lenovo into my small business cart and got $1000 under what you've mentioned (assumed you went with upgraded screen, the 60hz 300nits screen is a piece of crap and shouldn't exist in a machine of that calibre), but even at that price the framework does seem more attractive.
No doubt if you take money out of the equation it's a good option, but if you're on a budget you could hunt down a similar specced Lenovo Legion or something for a bit less.
I believe the price difference came from you being part of the Lenovo business store, I didn't use that the last time and just used the standard consumer store.
I just re-entered the specs on the consumer store for the X1 Extreme Gen 5 16" and got 5,214 Australian Dollars. Otherwise it might be if you aren't in Australia, did you get the local dollar amount and convert to AUD or did you use the Australian store directly?
Anyway, doesn't change the main point as you say that if you are bargain hunting, the Framework 16 isn't the way to go but it's still a good laptop from what we can see. I don't mind spending more for the framework since I believe in what it stands for. Plus who knows what might come with upgrades down the line.
Maybe Australia's offerings are different, but I see this board with an 11th gen i5 for USD $299. There's a ton in the $300-500 price range with several different configurations. That's really the interesting range for doing hobby projects.
I deliberately ignored 11th gen, is old enough that refurbished equivalents can be bought for the same price on eBay with a case, power supply, ram, storage, wifi and OS licence for the same money.
With the framework board you get none of that.
And as for it being an option for embedded use, there are far better options.
I know this all sounds negative... But I'm truly trying to like the idea. I can't see it catching and reaching the mass needed to become more sustainable at this point.
It's just going to remain a niche untill they die... Or maybe they can survive on the small numbers? (Which I think would be great by the way, I'm very proud choice, just not a fan of the price!)
Honestly, I'm impressed they're selling to Australia.
My opinion:
Framework has a good track record and I would give them the benefit of the doubt until proven otherwise. (Concerning upgradeability)
laptops are getting more and more powerful and I like the idea of treating them similar to a desktop
as a ThinkPad user you probably know how popular especially old ThinkPads are, because of the ability to mod them
you might buy a new laptop every few years but the point above proves that there will be people interested in a second hand laptop, therefore reducing waste
there will always be a market for good quality and customer friendly products and the existence of framework is great for competition (for the end user)
they support the open source mentality, even tried to help to bring coreboot to their laptops. Even though that failed they're keeping an eye on openSIL
overall I'm more of Linux instead of Windows, FOSS instead of corporate closed software, Lemmy instead of reddit and framework/system76/.. instead of Lenovo/.. kind of person. I see it partly as a fight for "freedom" if you so will.
I think that swappable GPUs are the killer feature. A 7 year old CPU is fine, a 7 year old GPU not so much.
Seven years is a bit harsh, but upgrading the gpu once in 3-4 years would have saved you money and electronic waste.
7 year isnt that bad. I like to always say if you vare about how hardware ages as a gamer, match the consoles of the current generation.
So any decent 8c/16t cpu will likely age fine for the foreseeable generation. With gpus, ot was a matter of matching what the consoles have reserved for vram (10-14gb depending on how much ram the game reserves for itself and the OS). Its why 8 gb vram gpus are aging like milk with the current gen.
I'm still running a PC from 2012. It's seriously fine, I only started feeling it last year. Looking to upgrade next month.
Still remains to be seen how cost effectively the actual upgrade can be done.
Replacement/ upgrade GPUs are not a new thing and have failed to take off in the past.
MXM was the name of the form factor... Info for the curious... https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mobile_PCI_Express_Module
Not asking much... Just if they just would add a trackpoint, a decent mechanical keyboard (don't mind if this adds 0.5cm to the thickness) and offer a black chassis... I feel they would really be the new home of former IBM ThinkPad users which are more and more disappointed about Lenovos decisions to try to compete with Macs.
Yea, differenc chassis is something they could improve.
While I love my mech getting one included means a full redesign for the benefit of just a small subgroup.
That said, I did notice their keyboards run QMK firmware, was very impressed by that.
Black is must, I have to admit that shiny look is a put off for me.
Track point needs to happen too.
And my biggest compliant for my ThinkPad is the ctrl and FN keys being in shitty places.
"I'd like "Translations" for $100, Alex."
I’m guessing it’s supposed to be “parts get hard to get”, which is accurate. It doesn’t matter if you have the schematic that shows your
SB00C793FGX64 rev3needs replacing if the part isn’t manufactured anymore.I run a Thinkpad and my partner is an early adopter of the v1 Framework. She had quite a few early adopter issues on her leading me to believe the hardware polish isn't there 100% (eg hinges too weak they had to release an upgrade, this broke the display cable and led to BIOS issues, etc).
I mostly agree, the one place I think Thinkpad could use more maintainability is in mainboard compatibility. Framework promises (TBD) Mainboard compatibility across upgrades, we'll see if they deliver.