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I have been seeing plenty of guillhotine and mollotov jokes here, and as the title says, punching nazis.

I've been reading a book about nonviolence and anarchism, and he basically shows how we shouldn't use violence, even in extreme cases (like neo nazis).

The main argument is that the means dictates the ends, so if we want a non violent (and non opressing) society, punching people won't help.

And if it is just a joke, you should probably know that some people have been jailed for decades because of jokes like these (see: avoiding the fbi, second chapter of the book above).

Obviously im up for debate, or else I wouldn't make this post. And yes, I do stand for nonviolence.

(english is not my first language, im sorry if I made errors, or wansn't clear.)

(if this is not pertinent, I can remake this post in c/politics or something)

(the book is The Anarchist Cookbook by Keith McHenry, if you are downloading from the internet, make sure you download it from the correct author, there is another book with the same name.)

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[-] beliquititious 5 points 3 months ago

Nonviolence is a lofty, and unattainable ideal. Unless you can create something that prevents violence in an absolute, physical sense or can successfully breed out the sadistic elements of humanity it will forever be subject to the whims of charismatic violent people. World history, at least from the perspective of governing authority, is nothing but physical and psychological violence.

The Buddhists would tell you that life is duhkah (suffering). Trying to force any order onto only increases suffering. The french existentialists would tell them that the only thing you can do about it is to laugh in the face of the absurdity of existence. Then they'd go to a bar and the buddhists would watch the existentialists drink themselves to oblivion respectfully and with a detached interest.

Anarchism, nonviolence, and philosophy in general, rarely align with your subjective lived experience. The best way to deal with Nazis is not to punch them, but to live your life the best you can and try to have as much fun with other humans as is possible. If you engage with them on their terms, those of violence and hate, they've already won. Hug a nazi, especially if you're part of a demographic they hate. Treat them like you would a slow child. Education, empathy, and kindness beat the nazi next door. Unfortunately though once they establish their fourth Reich like it seems they are close to, you have to wield collective hard power (tanks, predator drones, and boots on the ground).

You, the human reading this, will accomplish nothing by punching a nazi, hug them or ignore them until it's time to fight them collectively.

[-] Randomgal@lemmy.ca 5 points 3 months ago

They are not jokes. People here really don't see a problem with violence, unless it against "the bad guys". It's sickening.

[-] chicken@lemmy.dbzer0.com 4 points 3 months ago* (last edited 3 months ago)

I think people saying that stuff are serious about advocating for political violence. I can't imagine how it wouldn't make things worse. Violence is a core element of fascist ideology, there's clear utility in using the attention it brings for recruiting, the trauma it inflicts for hazing, the experience for training. I remember when I saw a particular famous clip of a nazi speaking in public and being punched in the face by a masked assailant, I had never even heard his name before then, but after that clip was all over the internet that changed for a lot of people, and it definitely didn't get him to shut up. Maybe there's situations where people need to be defended, or there is need for someone acting as a bouncer, but I suspect in many cases it's some combination of useful idiots giving them what they want, or extremists on the other side who share their goals of agitating for armed revolution giving them what they want.

[-] LwL@lemmy.world 4 points 3 months ago

I've been called a nazi on here for suggesting precisely that we shouldn't punch nazis solely for being nazis so I'm assuming it's serious for at least some people.

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[-] MattTheProgrammer@lemmy.world 4 points 3 months ago

Hey, you guys are going Nazi punching? Can I join?

[-] That_Devil_Girl@lemmy.ml 4 points 3 months ago

Not at all serious. If I see a Nazi walking down the street, I'm more likely to ignore or avoid him rather than confront him.

If the Nazis take over and implement Project 2025, among other evil acts, then that's a different situation.

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[-] c0smokram3r@midwest.social 3 points 3 months ago

Download for the version OP mentioned, from Internet Archive. Had to shorten it:

https://tini.fyi/hJpj0

Be safe out in them streets ☮️

[-] yamanii@lemmy.world 3 points 3 months ago

Not very many I bet since everyone is an internet tough guy, I never actually fought in my life.

[-] JubilantJaguar@lemmy.world 3 points 3 months ago* (last edited 3 months ago)

My thoughts are that most people in this discussion have little idea what the word Nazi actually means and that therefore this silly question is a bit of an insult to the victims of Nazism.

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[-] TropicalDingdong@lemmy.world 3 points 3 months ago

2020 was a glorious year for punching fascists.

[-] chemical_cutthroat@lemmy.world 3 points 3 months ago

The most serious. I will go to court over it.

[-] Seraph@fedia.io 3 points 3 months ago

The one thing fascists can't stand is to be laughed at. Don't take them seriously - laugh at them and it hits harder than a gut punch.

[-] originalfrozenbanana@lemm.ee 3 points 3 months ago
[-] Tylerdurdon@lemmy.world 3 points 3 months ago

I see some of that rhetoric and I think it's mostly the younger folks. The virility of youth combined with the challenges they are faced with leave everyone more on edge. There are other factors of course, lack of wisdom, Internet anonymity, etc

I don't think violence is a useful tool when fighting against hate groups. It's what they want. Then they have a claim that they are oppressed. You let them make the first move.

That being said, I'm ready to fight back against them at a moment's notice and will use all means. I see the luxuries most of us enjoy (food, electricity, clean water) and hope it never comes to that for all our sake. Our just-in-time economy depends on stability and COVID showed us how easily it can all get fucked up. Out of control violence is one of those ways.

[-] Excrubulent@slrpnk.net 3 points 3 months ago* (last edited 3 months ago)

Anarchism isn't non-violent. To assume anti-oppression and pacifism are one and the same is to make the same mistake Engels makes in On Authority.

Authority is violent, but violence is not authority.

Edit: on this topic I'd recommend Anark's video on Power, where he explains that anarchism seeks to create a horizontal power structure. It is not the absence of power structures, it displaces oppressive power structures with egalitarian ones.

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this post was submitted on 15 Sep 2024
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