insane that germany wasnt even considert. i know cold war bla bla. but lets be honest, what better land for isreal than the nation that killed 6 million and therefor revoked germanys right to exist. saying this as a german and a critic of current isreal
I see your point. But I believe there would have been a good chance of it turning out like the U.S. when they finally did away with slavery. (Yes, I know different forms of slavery were drafted and implemented before it was outlawed. However, the sure count of people that were in slavery of any kind in the U.S., greatly decreased the decade following. It's still morally wrong. But that's a reality the U.S. and other countries lived and breathed back then.) I would worry that some form of Jim Crow laws would come about, after more Jewish people returned. (This does have me interested in learning more about how the Jewish people were treated over a decade, after the Nazi party fell in Germany. If anyone can point me in the right 'direction,' it would be much appreciated.) I'm not a historian, nor Israel expert. But I am a person wanting to learn more about the world's accurate history.
i am confused of what you mean. after ww2 ended in europe germany had no goverment or souverinity. there was no country so to say just the zones under allied forces control. before a german goverment was reestablished they should have given jewish people the right to form their own country/goverment there. i mean i oppose religous goverments, but if you needed to create isreal somewhere, there was the place. a souverin no mans land
Do you really think that any Jews would migrate to a newly founded state right next to or within Germany?
It's less about the government and more about the populace. A great many of the people of Germany were complicit in the Holocaust. Those that didn't work in the camps (or even know what happened there) were still reporting their neighbors and having their children join the Hitler youth. Much like the US South where black folks continued to be surrounded by racists that (for over a century) would lynch a formerly enslaved people with no repercussions, the Jews would be living amongst their former oppressors.
It was considered by some, I believe. This author wanted to avoid displacing anyone, though. Of course, many in Germany at that time were guilty in some way, so it would have been justifiable. But it would have always been a cause for tension, which, no matter how justified or morally right it would have been, in practice would lead to tensions similar to those in Israel/Palestine today.
This author wanted to avoid displacing anyone, though.
Displacing white people. Taking the land of indigeneous people seems totally okay.
As if jews are not indigeneous to that region
Indigenous identity is tied to historical and biological continuity with a specific territory, rather than religious affiliation alone. Zionists who made the state has no proof of being descendent of the israelites
Anybody who is jewish with mother and father that are also jewish are given the right to live in the west bank by stealing a palestinian house
No country would have accepted a state to be forced on their land. Gemrnqy still make the most sense since Germany surrended
The idea of settling Jews in the land of their murderers is preposterous. How could Jews feel safe living right next to their killers?
It would also completely validate the antisemitic thoughts of Hitler, that he had fought the war against the Jews. Jews literally getting German territory after the war proves this.
This doesn't read exactly friendly or sympathetic to the Jewish refugees other than it gives them a nation to be deported to. This doesn't exactly read like a Jewish diaspora lead document. Seems like a "modest proposal" document by an anti-refugee person that isn't a complete POS for their times but the idea was.
Idk, Zionism is already kinda defeatist and antisemetic to begin with in its foundation. And later parts sound much more like it was written by a jewish person, such as "Dignity instead of sympathy." I say this because zionism is rooted in the belief jewish people can never and will never be accepted anywhere, and that they need their own nation to have somewhere safe. So with that in mind, I could see how this was written by a jewish zionist. Not that it isnt possible it wasnt, just that I feel there is reason to believe it was.
Which I can understand why this belief came into being, but I definitely dont agree with it. Nationalism and religious intolerance is why antisematism exists, so to me making a religious nation-state is like fighting fire with fire. You're not seeking equality, freedom, or acceptance, you're seeking somewhere where you're on top. Should be seeking a situation where no one is on top.
Edit: I tried searching the author, Joseph Hefter, to see if he was jewish but I cant find anything on him.
I believe the author is, in fact, a Jewish nationalist. See my comment elsewhere in the thread and here.
Zionism was proven correct by history.
Assimilation failed all over Europe pretty badly. Jews were expelled from Muslim countries after Israel was established.
Zionists were a minority among Jews pretty much until the non Zionists were killed in the Holocaust.
Many Jews were also into communism because of your idea of equality for all. That didn’t work out either. The Soviet Union persecuted and oppressed Jews. They even created a Jewish Oblast as a homeland in the middle of nowhere in Siberia. In the end they didn’t follow through with deporting all Jews there.
Everything you propose was tried repeatedly. It lead to further oppression and death for Jews.
Zionism was correct in its pessimistic analysis of the situation.
Begone colonizer. Your excuses will not redeem you from the sins of genocide and colonization.
10 is definitely Kashmir right? Would have been interesting to throw a 4th faction in that fight.
that's irrelevant. everyone of those would have become a genocidal apartheid state.
That's the catch right? Is there even a correct way to resettle a population? Ethnostates on some level with probably always just be broken.
But I'm glad op shared this. This seems to be a part of the Isreal discussion that gets walked past
Yes. there is. this has happened many times though history. we have a name for that, refugees.
Did the Yiddish refugees who settled in America began am ethnic cleansing? did the Jewish refugees from 1492 spain who settled in North Africa caused an ethnic cleansing?
and the other countless refugee events in history?
Israel isn't a "resettlement of people fleeing violence", it was a racist and antisemitic settler colonial project from the beginning, and wherever it chose to build itself, it would have been the same bullshit with different victims.
This part isn’t mentioned much because it’s irrelevant fringe. Several locations were discussed at the time, only Palestine was practically viable. It has the huge advantage of having core historical and cultural significance to the Jewish people. “Next year in Jerusalem” is said at Passover and Yom Kippur, their most important festivals. There had also been a continuous Jewish population in the land.
Ethnostates are the default in Europe and there are many around the world. A common ethnicity, language, and culture creates cohesion and solidarity.
The multi-ethnic empire that came before that had their own issues.
People have a right to self determination. That includes the Jewish people.
America loves them so much, why didn’t they hand over a state to them?
New York, or Washington DC?
Because of antisemitism. The USA had strict quotas for Jewish immigration. There were ships full of Jewish refugees, that were refused entry and had to turn around. Many of those on the shops died later in the Holocaust.
The British also had put restrictions on Jewish immigration to the mandate of Palestine during the 1940s. Ships filled with Jewish refugees were forced to Cyprus where they were kept prisoner in camps.
During Israel’s war of independence in 1948, the USA had an arms embargo against it.
north america has plenty of space, should have put it there
North America has a very bad history with concentrating groups to certain regions
Most countries at the time didn’t want Jewish immigration or restricted it heavily. The USA sent ships full of Jewish refugees back to Europe during the Holocaust.
Dude, if they put the Jews in India, you could've had whole generations of Hinjews. Or if they were in Canada we could talk about the Canjew attitude.
same way that modern Israel is accepting of mixing Pelstinian people with Israel?
If they settled in India, you would have a whole generation of disposed Indians being ethnically cleansed.
a whole generation of disposed Indians being ethnically cleansed.
Are you aware of the partition of India and how many people were displaced?
20% of Israeli citizens are not Jewish, most of them Palestinian Arabs (self identification and labels vary). They have equal rights, vote, have respected professions like judge or doctor and are doing well economically. Sure, there’s also some discrimination, however overall Israeli Arabs are the most free and among the most prosperous people in the region.
Israel is okay with an Arab minority. They can’t annex the West Bank and Gaza and give everyone citizenship without losing the majority. Having a country that’s majority Jewish is the whole point of Israel.
you might consider to stop drinking the Hasbara tit
Here's a pamphlet on the subject:
https://archive.org/details/rfj_20190624/page/n3/mode/2up
This appears to be an attempt at a non-Zionist, Jewish nationalist movement. This Joseph Hefter lists himself as the national leader in the pamphlet, so despite the reference to "the explosive abnormality of the nameless, homeless, roaming Jewish nation" that "will aggrevate theNew Peace even more than it aggrevated the outbreak of the present catastrophic war" I have to assume that Hefter himself was Jewish. Unsurprisingly, the nationalist is the "self-hating" Jew, and not, despite frequent accusations, the leftist, diasporic Jew, such as myself.
Interesting history, nonetheless.
It’s a fringe group. The author is also American and not a persecuted European Jew.
wouldn't it be funny if they chose Brazil
Might bump into some old acquaintances
The ironic thing is a lot of those refugees who made it to Australia ended up in Melbourne, and Sydney, not QLD
Nothing in Queensland on the map. NT and SA.
looked like QLD on my tiny phone screen. grabs glasses ahh fuck me I was looking at the number, not the blocks.
Christ, can you imagine fleeing the holocaust only to end up in darwin when the Japanese start bombing.
For the map enthused!
Rules:
post relevant content: interesting, informative, and/or pretty maps
be nice
