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So, I assume that if you put 100 people on a spaceship and sent them to wherever, they'd get very inbred in a few generations. How many people would you need for this to not happen, accounting for the fact that there will eventually be people who are infertile or die before having children?

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[-] radix@lemmy.world 57 points 1 month ago

There are different answers depending on the end goal.

Mere survival: Isolated human populations have been bottlenecked to as few as a few hundred individuals and survived, IIRC.

A quick search says biologists like to see 25+ breeding pairs to maintain an animal species (if I'm reading that correctly). So 50-100 seems like pretty close to the minimum.

Long-term colony building with full genetic diversity needs a lot more: At least one estimate is as high as 40,000 people. The high number is for Earth-like diversity in the population, and with no need for any overarching breeding program, so it's really kind of an outlier scenario. That 40k figure can be pared down significantly if you have strict protocols, or accept some loss of diversity.

So anywhere from 50 people to 40,000 people, but the end result will look wildly different at the extremes.

[-] CidVicious@sh.itjust.works 22 points 1 month ago

It seems very plausible that if you can make a generation ship, you could make something like CRISPR to artificially increase genetic diversity/eliminate potential birth defects. Or perhaps just store genetic material for more people than the actual colonists on the ship. You'd probably want to hedge your bets in case there's a low survival rate. There's a lot that could go wrong. Ecosystem failure, negative effects of radiation, or just good old fashioned murder.

[-] Swedneck@discuss.tchncs.de 8 points 1 month ago

just bringing a ton of frozen sperm and eggs is honestly the real answer i feel, why worry about bringing a bunch of living people who need resources and stuff, when you can just bring a quarter of earth's diversity with you in the freezers?

The two downsides to this is that people can't really have kids with each other, and if the freezers malfunction you're a bit in the shit.

[-] MajorMajormajormajor@lemmy.ca 21 points 1 month ago

On a scale from Hapsburg to Earth, how do you want your new colony to go?

[-] Derpenheim@lemmy.zip 17 points 1 month ago

We can have a little bit of hapsburg, as a treat.

[-] vinceman 7 points 1 month ago

I've seen the jaw, I don't think you can have a little hapsburg.

[-] Aeao@lemmy.world 21 points 1 month ago

I like your answer because I feel the only real answer you can have is “more is better, less is worse”

How many should you take for good diversity? All 8 billion, more if you can find them.

[-] tomiant@piefed.social 2 points 1 month ago
[-] CidVicious@sh.itjust.works 1 points 1 month ago

LOL. I mainly got the idea of using genetic modification to increase diversity of a small population from the book Seveneves.

[-] Treczoks@lemmy.world 43 points 1 month ago

Pro tip: take frozen sperm/eggs with the ship. Can be used to infuse the population with fresh genetic material.

[-] remon@ani.social 27 points 1 month ago
[-] mittyta@lemmy.world 17 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago)

As I understand the article, it relates to the wild conditions. There is some evidence of lucky population that can survive after only 20 human bottleneck - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pingelap. And humanity itself could have faced around 1000 spices bottleneck - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Population_bottleneck.

[-] Steve@communick.news 15 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago)

This has been modeled. Though I don't have any references at hand, this is what I remember.

If you want to allow people to choose mates and breed normally, you'd need at least 3000 people, 4 to 5000 would be better.

If you are strictly controlling genomes and breeding pairs, ignoring monogamy and social norms. You might be able to get away with 100 if you selected for maximum initial genetic diversity. But 200 would be easier.

[-] Ziggurat@jlai.lu 13 points 1 month ago

If you are strictly controlling genomes and breeding pairs, ignoring monogamy and social norms. You might be able to get away with 100

In a Sci fi context where we have generation ships, I would add frozen sperm/eggs to the equation and even artificial womb. In like a 100kg package you can store a lot of genetic material. That's pretty fucked up (and a nice writing prompt) but definitely doable.

At this point the question is also cultural what is the minimum amount of person to keep a population able to maintain a large ship over centuries and produce enough food

[-] Swedneck@discuss.tchncs.de 3 points 1 month ago

i don't think it's that fucked up to have everyone with a womb be a surrogate mother, you'd just have to select people who are okay with it. There's nothing wrong with being a surrogate, it's basically just adoption except you get to give birth to the child.

[-] Triumph@fedia.io 10 points 1 month ago

... strictly controlling genomes and breeding pairs, ignoring monogamy and social norms, ...

Now kith

[-] Bane_Killgrind@lemmy.dbzer0.com 1 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago)

You can read that as the meme reference and the dictionary meaning of relations.

[-] tomiant@piefed.social 5 points 1 month ago

What if you went full eugenics and started out with a bunch of hot chicks?

[-] Steve@communick.news 6 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago)

That low end of 100 would be with full eugenics. Selecting for genetic diversity, not for "hotness".

If you were selecting for that, it would mean less genetic diversity, you might start seeing problems within 5 generations. But that's just me speculating.

[-] tomiant@piefed.social 7 points 1 month ago

Look, I'm not a doctor, I just need to know if there's gonna be hot space chicks.

[-] spittingimage@lemmy.world 5 points 1 month ago

Duh. Why else go to space?

[-] Atelopus-zeteki@fedia.io 4 points 1 month ago

Thanks that's useful. My guess (WAG), on orders of magnitude was that 1000 would be too small, but 10,000 might be enough.

[-] LibertyLizard@slrpnk.net 8 points 1 month ago

The obvious solution here is to include frozen gametes in the ship’s cargo to increase the diversity of the population. It would be culturally easiest with frozen sperm but if necessary you could include eggs as well, provided people are willing to be surrogate mothers.

[-] Swedneck@discuss.tchncs.de 1 points 1 month ago

i don't think it would even be that much of a concern, really. Not only can one person have multiple children (so you can do one surrogate and one genetically yours), but there are plenty of people who'd just be happy they get to give birth to their child and couldn't care less about genes.

[-] porcoesphino@mander.xyz 8 points 1 month ago

It's the wrong place to ask, but if I liked this question, where should I be subscribed to besides !space@mander.xyz ?

[-] AlchemicalAgent@mander.xyz 1 points 1 month ago

Depending on your preferences, !biodiversity@mander.xyz and !biology@mander.xyz are both pretty great.

[-] porcoesphino@mander.xyz 2 points 1 month ago

I was more thinking of the space / rockets side of things but you got me. I'm already subscribed to both

[-] Know_not_Scotty_does@lemmy.world 6 points 1 month ago

In the Galaxy's Edge series this is tangentially addressed, the TLDR is that there are other implications of being on a ship for generations that outweigh the genetic problems. The Savages have a well earned title fwiw both in origin and action. It is a bleak outlook on the concept but I don't think it is farfetched given everything we are living through right now.

[-] AbouBenAdhem@lemmy.world 5 points 1 month ago

There are actually two issues:

  • The most obvious effect of inbreeding is the increase in homozygosity for deleterious mutations, causing more birth defects.

  • A subtler effect is the loss of genetic diversity reducing a population’s ability to continue to evolve in response to future selection pressures. This would be especially important when migrating to a new environment with new selection pressures the species has never encountered before.

[-] bluGill@fedia.io 1 points 1 month ago

Of course once they arrive and population expands we can expect random mutations to build up over the next 100k years or so. If you can last that long.

[-] porcoesphino@mander.xyz 1 points 1 month ago

And presuming a species that built a generation ship doesn't have the ability to handle these environmental changes (either through "fixing" the environment or the genes). And there are two migrations here. I'm not seeing much targeting the earth to generation ship migration directly here. But, they'd all die in free space so the ship is an environmental "fix" and they may need a genetic "fix" to handle things like long term exposure to lower gravity, or some quirks of centripetal gravity.

[-] MalReynolds@piefed.social 5 points 1 month ago

Not what you mean, but one woman and a shit-ton of frozen sperm and ova would probably work, say 3 for redundancy...

this post was submitted on 23 Oct 2025
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