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Israeli strike hits Rafah area after Hamas barrage
(www.bbc.co.uk)
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this post was submitted on 27 May 2024
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If you're a pacifist, I can respect that.
But I don't agree with those who believe that (say) the US invasion of Normandy can be justified, but this invasion cannot be justified. Both involved immense civilian suffering.
The invasion of Normandy was not what started the war. The war started when the Nazis invaded Poland.
And the storming of Normandy beach did not involve the deaths of civilians.
This war started when Hamas invaded Israel.
And the invasion of Normandy did not end on the beach.
Hamas did not invade Israel. What are you talking about? They didn't try to take over territory. They committed an act of terrorism, not an act of war.
Distinction without difference, it's a casus belli either way.
Of course there's a difference. An invasion is about seizing territory.
An attack is a casus belli even without seizing territory.
For example, if Putin launched missiles at Warsaw or DC, he would start a war. It makes no difference if any territory is taken.
I see, and that will justify killing countless Russian children in your opinion?
A missile strike is a legitimate casus belli. If you're not a pacifist, that means it justifies force to achieve a military objective, which necessarily justifies killing civilians.
Whether that's "countless" or a few depends on the objective.
Yes, I get that you think that as long as it fits the military goal, killing any amount of children is justified.
And I'm telling you that position is disgusting and abhorrent.
There is no military goal that justifies killing "any amount" of civilians. All of them have limits, which are based on military capabilities.
Okay, what is the limit of children the IDF should be able to kill before it is no longer justified? Give me a number.
In general, civilian-combatant casualty ratios range from 1:1 to 5:1. They tend to be higher in urban settings like Gaza. The Chechen wars were closer to 7-10:1
The US estimates 15,000 combatants have been killed in Gaza. If so, we would consider 15,000 to 75,000 civilian deaths to be normal at this point.
Israel themselves said they would accept 15 dead civilians for low level Hamas staff and 100+ for higher ranking ones.
And they overshoot hard.
IDF count every male above 16 as Hamas by default. You're gonna get a lot of false positives that way
I'm using US estimates of combatant deaths, not IDF estimates.
https://www.timesofisrael.com/us-said-to-believe-israel-killed-just-20-30-of-hamas-terrorists-in-gaza-fighting/
Just FYI the total stats for injured is way way way above 35k
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-68387864
Anyone reading along in this thread should probably check the veracity of these claimed ratios. Wikipedia has an okay overview.
It's also worth noting that the Russian wars in Chechnya were particularly notable for their brutal war crimes.
@FlyingSquid
I'll save you the effort:
If there are 15,000 combatants among the 35,000 dead in Gaza, then this war stands at 1.3:1
I asked about children.
I consider all civilians to be equal, so I'm not going to separate children for the same reason I'm not going to separate Palestinian Christians, mothers, teachers, or retirees.
Okay, let me put it this way- are you so firm in your conviction that all the child deaths in Gaza so far have been justified that you would be willing to say that to the parents of a dead child? Because I'm willing to find some so that you can tell them that yourself. I bet they'd even be willing to get on video chat with you so you can tell them, to their faces, that their child's death was justifiable.
So, are you willing to do that? Tell grieving parents that their child's death was justifiable because Israel is accomplishing its military objectives?
Believing something is true does not mean that you should tell someone, especially someone in grief.
If someone's husband just died, would you be willing to say, "You should know that he was cheating on you for years"?
If someone's mother just died, would you be willing to say, "I really think you should have spent more time with her in her final days"?
If someone's child commits suicide, would you be willing to say, "You could have prevented this if you had bothered to pay attention to the warning signs"?
Even if all these things are 100% true, I think it would be monstrous to blurt them out.
Sometimes compassion means respecting that people are not always ready to hear the truth.
Okay, so you would be willing to tell them that in a year, correct? You gave them time to grieve, so they would be ready to hear the truth.
Shall we make an appointment in one years' time for you to tell the parents of a dead Palestinian child that their child's death was justified so that Israel could meet their military objectives?
Some people will never be ready.
One year later, ten years later, a million years later: I would never say "You could have prevented your child's death".
Most people do not want to debate the circumstances of their child's death, ever. They often only want reassurance that it's part of god's plan. And if that's all they want, then that's all I will ever say about it (even though I'm not exactly religious).
Do you think any Palestinians will be willing to hear that the death of a Palestinian child was justified so that Israel could achieve its military goals?
Edit: Wait a second-
What are you even talking about? I thought this was about whether or not the death was justified, not whether or not it was preventable.
“You could have prevented your child’s death” is simply an example of something that may be true, but I will never say to anyone. Not next year, not in a hundred years. Not in Palestine, not in New York.
I don't think anyone, Palestinian or not, will be willing to debate whether the death of their child was justified.
I think plenty of people, including Palestinians, are willing to debate whether the death of other people's children is justified. For example, some Palestinians argued that the death of Israeli children on 10/7 was justified.
You didn't answer my question. I will ask it again:
I think some would be willing and some wouldn't.
Some Palestinians are in the IDF, they might agree it's justified. Some Palestinians don't agree, but are willing to hear an opposing view. And many Palestinians, like many people in general, don't want to hear an opposing view.
But no parent would be willing to hear that within a year? Just other Palestinians who did not lose children?
And let's talk about agreement- How about a lot of the rest of the world? Would you say that most of the world would agree with you that Israel is justified in killing thousands of children for their military goals? If a majority, how big a majority? Can you back that up? If a minority, then it sounds less like it's justified and more like you personally consider it to be so, which is a different issue.
As I said, I think the vast majority of people who have lost a child do not ever want to debate whether the death was justified. Furthermore plenty of other people - Palestinian or otherwise - do not want to engage in a debate over Israel.
I have no idea how many people in the rest of the world agree with Israel, and it doesn't matter to me at all. I don't think it affects whether they are justified. There are plenty of things that are not justified even though they are very popular, and vice versa.
Sorry... you think moral justification does not depend on what the majority considers to be morally justified?
Where does it come from, your god?
Morality usually comes from some sort of first principles. Some are religiously inspired, but I think it's much better to start with one or more moral philosophers.
If we simply put it to a vote, then we would likely conclude that slavery was moral in the 18th century.
Which moral philosopher says that it's justified to kill thousands of children to achieve military goals?